To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

I think it should be up to the couple what they can cope with. Sometimes they may already be caring for a child woth disabilities and be unable to cope with more. Are there alot of these critics willing to raise a severely ill baby that the parents cannot? Have these critics faced being told their baby has trisomy 13/18, harlequin ichyosis or other illness? Unless they have I just take 'what they would do' with a pinch of salt. I personally didn't do further tests for downs (positive triple) but would terminate if the baby would die/suffer. The same choice would be presented at birth anyway. Is it wrong to switch off life support of a baby with poor quality of life?

And if this is not about abortion what is it about?

Basically you have just admitted that you think Abortion is OK in some circumstances but not in others while all along you have used phrases like 'kill' and 'person' when talking about a foetus.

Your argument holds no water if you think a 'person' conceived through rape can be 'killed'.

TDL - of course it should be changed.

But if a woman is having a test, here, today, she knows that's not likely to happen while David Cameron has an arsehole.

'92% of babies with Down Syndrome are aborted.'
But surely many who wouldn't abort don't have the blood tests in the first place?

Litchick please don't be disingenuous. We know for a fact that the majority of women who have children with DS are older, and given that 92% abort it is not statistically possible (unless the whole country has fallen below the poverty line and developed mental health issues) that even the majority of those women are poor or ill.

Surely it would be better to push for more support for people with disabilities than to say "well there's no support so it's better to abort?" There's no support for depression either but I'm glad I wasn't aborted on that basis.

Nancydrew I'm so sorry to hear about your story and I am aware DS is a serious condition but as I've stated I think five times now I am not talking about children who have no possibility of surviving. Why anyone would make a woman carry a child who won't survive is beyond me.

DF you haven't really answered my question but I won't push you. I would like you to consider what I've said but if you don't want to say any more about it I'll let it drop. Basically my point was a family in a society where women aren't valued could make the same arguments for abortion as you make for someone with a disability (in fact, being female can be a life-threatening and serverely life-limiting condition in many cultures, such as Afghanistan). If a family in that culture wanted to abort on the basis that the baby was female why would it be wrong if their reasons were the same?

exactly Jellybeans. The stat should surely be that 92% of babies who have been diagnosed with downs syndrom through testing (CVS/Amnio) are aborted. there are plenty of people who don't have the testing in the first place.

Good point, jellybeans. I didn't have the test despite knowing the risk, as I'd already decided I'd keep a DS child if born. So I wouldn't have been on the statistics, would I?

maybe you would like to answer my last question about why it's ok to 'kill' a 'person' concieved through rape but not a 'person' with a chromosonal abnormality?

I agree with DF, who chooses that a baby conceived via rape should be 'killed' but not a child with life limiting disabilities?

Writer, I am also Irish and I can see where you are coming from but I actually think that in a country where abortion is legal, and healthy foetuses are aborted all the time for various reasons, I don't see why aborting disabled foetuses should be any more morally objectionable. Are you anti-abortion generally or just pro-disabled rights (or both)?

For most people, the issue of having a disabled child is not some 'lifestyle' choice but a genuine concern that they won't be able to care properly for the child. If DH and I have children (struggling at the moment, recent MC etc), we are aware that we will struggle with childcare, even for a healthy child, as we have no family living nearby and both need to work. If I had a disabled child, I would be genuinely terrified about how I would manage their care. Social services are patchy, respite care is scarce and most parents of children with special needs have to rely on either the state or family for help. In Ireland, that is easier as extended families are more common and family support is expected. Here, a lot of people have to cope on their own without family support and childcare, even for healthy children, is a real struggle. I wouldn't assume that all parents who choose to abort a foetus with special needs are being selfish or trying to obliterate Downs Syndrome children from the face of the earth, Hitler-style, they may just have genuine worries about how they would cope with a child that needs 24 hour care for life or that will never live an independent life. Until you've walked a mile in their shoes, it's hard to judge. It's easy to work with disabled kids and think 'they're wonderful' but what about caring for them 24/7?

writer a very large proportion of the population are in receipt of government help.

The UK is very much split between the haves and the have nots.

We also know for an absolute fact that in the next five years government help is going to be more and more difficult to get.

The vulnerable, the disabled, the elderly will all be first in line. Tell me I'm wrong.

Yes, of course we need to campaign against all this.

But I repeat, for a woman taking a test here, now, campaigns won't do fuck all.

Writer, do you read the papers? Parents are not supported enough, only the strong and well supported survive having a child with numerous disabilities.

Litchick I haven't ignored the concerns of people whose babies have died. I'd appreciate it if you'd read my posts before commenting on them.

DF a baby who is the result of rape is still a person. However that person's mother did not choose in any way to conceive that baby. I don't think it's realistic to expect a woman in that circumstance to continue with the pregnancy.

However, women in all other circumstances chose to have a baby by having sex. Having sex results in the creation of another person, if you don't realise that then maybe you have an issue which means you shouldn't be having sex. Just denying the consequences is not accptable in my book.

Getting childcare is almost impossible for disabled children. Ditto holiday clubs.

Respite care is nigh on extinct.

In fact WoD, we are not discussing here abortion of female in Afghanistan, where life, in general, isn't particularly appealing for large strata of the population. I don't even think abortion is legal in Afghanistan.

We are talking about the UK, a liberal country, where there is a legislation that guarantees the right of a woman to choose.

If you allow abortion for rape then what about contraceptive failure, where every effort has been made to not conceive?

"that person's mother did not choose in any way to conceive that baby"

Hi inmyprime I don't think people are trying to eliminate Downs hitler-style at all. My concern is that people are very much given the impression by society and the NHS that aborting is better than carrying on with the pregnancy. It doesn't sit right with me.

Also I don't think the lack of support is a valid excuse for abortion. Surely it's better to push for more support than to validate the lack of support by reducing the need for it?

Of course lack of support will impact a family's decision to keep a child with disabilities.

If you have to work to feed the rest of your children then, by God, childcare, holiday clubs and the rest are neccessary. How else?

And if you think there is childcare out there and holiday clubs and respite care for disabled children, then think again. It is very difficult to access.

Survive, without crushing mental anguish, getting sleep...you know the things that make life easier.

Fluffy, did you not consider who would care for your child before it arrived?

writer - you can push as much as you want.
The support is pitiful.