To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

Litchick oh I am so glad about that dear.
but you know you should actually try to see the other side.
but if you want to be all doom and gloom go for it.
your loss

It's not shocking 2shoes. Noone thinks that having a child with SN is a constant struggle but it is more challenging that an NT child mostly, benefits, housing, travel etc are all impacted by certain disabilities and it's foolish to argue that it isn't more difficult. Even getting your child into a decent school is hard.

but so is getting a nt child into a good school!!!

WriterofDreams, I really don't agree. I'm not English, but I lived in the UK for a long time, and I feel that in the UK society and the state are inclusive and pro active about people with disabilities.

Come and have a look here in Italy, where, among other things, money has been slashed from state school, and children with statements rarely manage to have a TA for all the hrs they need. This is just a tiny example.

I would probably keep a baby with DS in the UK. I'd have much more heartache in making the same decision here in Italy (a catholic country and all that!!! Ironic, isn't it)

Hallelujah to that!!

I expressed that badly. I was trying to point out that fertility & birth control has many facets, many of which wouldn't be thought of as "control" by those TTc or battling through a difficult pregancy, for example. In all cases - whether a baby is terminated, assisted, resuscitated or whatever - medicine is being used on behalf of the parent's wishes, not the child's. I wanted to ask people who crticise abortion to think about that: you can't say one side=good, other side=bad, without also admitting you wish to control other people's fertility on the basis of your opinion.

Litchick 92% of babies with Down Syndrome are aborted. There is no possible way that all of those families are too poor or mentally unstable to care for a disabled child. Remember that a large proportion of those mothers will be older so it's unlikely that they are clueless, jobless or penniless. Those statistics say a very large amount about how much children with Down Syndrome are valued in society.

DF a family living in a country where women are not valued could easily argue that having a female child will be a huge burden to the family, that that child will require lifelong care (due to the family not being able to afford a dowry for her) and that they can't cope. So if the medical system said yes, test for sex and we would advise abortion if it's a girl, where would they be going wrong?

I wouldn't have aborted based upon the fact that my child might not get a job or get married, infact the child I am carrying now might not get a job or get married.

I would have aborted based upon the fact that neither my husband nor myself wanted to knowingly bring a child with a chromosonal disorder into the world and then us die leaving that child as an adult in the world, combined with the fact that neither of us wanted to knowingly spend the rest of our lives beyond our child's 18th birthday caring for them nor pass that care onto other people.

Call us selfish but the tests are available to us and we decided to have them knowing that we might have to make the choice to terminate. That's our choice and, just as I wouldn't ever try to influence anyoneon else RE the testing or the decision to abort, I think it is wrong for other people to impose what they would do on me.

Well having a baby=good, killing someone=bad, that's a basic fact of all civilised society surely?

Sorry my last post was to 2shoes, re schools!!

Killing someone yes, terminating a pregnancy no.

2shoes - no-one here has said that having a disabled child is without rewards.

But that is not a reason to force women to continue with their pregnancies.

A number of pregnancies every year are terminated because the Mother is expecting multiples.
I have twins. They are a constant joy to me. But I would not presume to use this as a reason to prevent those other women aborting.

I don't live their lives.

I support the creation of life but not the termination of life. That seems a fairly clear distinction to me.

so WriterofDreams... you are basically anti-abortion in all circumstances?

DF would you support my hypothetical society where sex testing was standard and abortion offered (resulting in a rate of 92%)

Ishtar I am sorry for your loss and good post - I totally agree.

My DS2 died in utero as a result of Downs and I too have listened to endless comments about how DS "isn't a serious condition".

When I discovered I was pregnant again (a much longed for and wanted pregnancy after the trauma of losing DS) I had an early CVS and I had no doubt in my mind that if the results were positive I would have terminated the pregnancy.

Becasue in my world Downs is not a harmless learning disability, it is a fatal condition that meant I had to bury a very much wanted baby. It meant my DD who was just 4 (and DS1 who was 3) lost a brother who she still talks about every day. So anyone who has a problem with me considering termination in order to protect both myself and my family from suffering a similar trauma can frankly piss off.

'It's not shocking 2shoes. Noone thinks that having a child with SN is a constant struggle but it is more challenging that an NT child mostly, benefits, housing, travel etc are all impacted by certain disabilities and it's foolish to argue that it isn't more difficult. Even getting your child into a decent school is hard.'

Not sure I would make a decision based on how tough life is or whether there would be trouble getting the child into a certain school.
To be honest I am glad I dont have any friends with these attitudes. I'd find it hard to be in the same room. My child is a total joy in a way I'd never have understood before she was born.
And that lack of knowledge infringes on true choice. How can you make a choice from a position of ignorance?

Writerofdreams - I have already answered that question RE abortion because of Sex.

And I realise that last post wasn't reasoned debate but there is nothing reasonable about going through a pregnancy knowing that your baby is going to die.

writer - you have absolutley no idea as to the age or financial status of any of the wome who terminated the pregnancies where the foetus had DS.

We can only guess.

What we do know absolutely though, is that disability is utterly unsupported in the UK and likely to get very much worse in the next five years.
Riven starts lots and lots of threads about this very issue.

WoD, you're treading on very "pro-life" ground there.

Example: my best friend was pregnant with triplets. She had to terminate one, or all three would have died. Now, if you are to set yourself up as arbiter of life & death, what do think she should have done? What do you think of what she did do? (She "murdered" the smallest one.)

Then surely that should be changed rather than a turning toward abortion? The majority of disabled people actually become disabled at birth or afterwards due to accidents and illnesses (and war now sadly enough). They need support.

I don't want to get dragged into an abortion debate as this isn't really what the thread is about, but I only support abortion in the following situations:

1. The baby won't survive at all outside the womb

2)The woman has been raped

3. The woman will be seriously injured or die due to the pregnancy (I don't include threats of suicide in this as I have been suicidal myself and I know it is not a terminal condition)

If a woman (and yes I am placing the responsibility on the woman in the same way pro-abortionists place the choice on the woman) chooses to have sex then she knows one of the possible consequences is pregnancy. She needs to take responsibility for that. I know that sounds horrible and harsh to a lot of people but that's the way I feel and I make no apologies for it. I know however that that opinion will turn a lot of people against me.

Nancy - I am sorry for your loss. You are not the only poster on this thread who has said something very similar.

These posts however have been merrily ignored by the OP and her supporters who wish to portray every woman who considers terminating for disability either an evil murderer or utterly uninformed.

So - why do you feel that a foetus conceived from rape is not a 'person' when a disabled foetus is?