To be annoyed at the smuggy smugness? why is childbirth such a competion?

[AddictedIsFeelingHappy]

i'm 38+3 weeks pregnant and am getting irrationally annoyed by every thing.

a friend of mine had her baby yesterday and on facebook (i know its the spawn of satan) her status is along the lines of

'baby x arrived weeighing 8lb 4oz in a birthing pool, i had no pain relief drugs, even with a very long labour. come on ladies we can do what nature intended'

now i'm already alittle annoyed because she was due the day before me and has already had her baby, and mine is still not here. (irrational i know!)
but why put that about the drugs? you dont get a medal for doing it all naturally and it doesnt make you a failure if you do need drugs.

gah now i'm all annoyed and wound up and cant sleep [hangry]

Medical intervention is wonderful when it's needed but when it's not then of course it's wrong to suggest that people have it if they don't want it.

Labour can be someting you do rather than have done to you!

Had my three with C-sec. One EMC, one OC case the third just had to follow suite.

At the time felt a a bit hard done by bad luck, 8 years into mother hood and am wandering how much harder this job is.

Addict let it be and enjoy is not the first or the last time you will be pushed into comparing with other mothers.

Hope things go well for you and the baby- a healthy and gourges one may it be!!

haven't read entire thread but OP why are you so upset by your friend sharing what for her was a lovely positive birth experience?

It's not an attack on you! Good on her I say - yes it can be done though it not often is. I choose some drugs, but I feel joy & happiness for your friend's amazing experience and I don't even know her. I certainly don't feel like she's attacking me or women like me with her comment. Why shouldn't she shout about it from the rooftops - or would YOU feel better if she mentioned the birth & baby not not that it was drug free? Why why why? I'm not ashamed of having the drugs I had - why should I be? And guess what - it's not all about you!

YABU - lighten up! And best of luck with your own birth whatever choices you make.

"Has anyone suggested she didn't know what she was doing? I don't think so. I think what some people have pointed out was that the extreme euphoria you can experience after childbirth had affected her feelings and judgement. I don't think for one minute she thought that everyone can birth the same way and it's a bit telling that so many people here have chosen to interpret her comment as clear evidence that she has this belief."

Tittybangbang - I don't know if you realise that you start an awful lot of your posts as "Has anyone said that?" or "Has anyone suggested that?" I am sure it is just your style, but it makes your posts seem an awful lot more antagonistic than they need to be. People ae capable of reading the thread and drawing their own understanding of the individual posts, or an understanding of the general consensus on a thread. People are also then entitled to pick that understanding up and run with it - they don't have to limit themselves to responding to every point raised, exactly as it is made. Otherwise every thread would be either very short, or repetitively argumentative.

And I don't see why it is "telling" that people have placed a particular interpretation on this lady's comments. Telling of what exactly? That not everyone thinks exactly the same thing? That people have different views?

"making the "we can do what nature intended" proclamation slightly silly to be frank"

Yes - it is 'slightly silly'. I never said it was a 'sensible' comment.

But the sentiment is understandable when you take into account that this person has just been through a difficult first labour and is euphoric and exhausted.

And the vicious judgementalism with which it's been treated here on mn is, IMO

"And all your posts are just thinly veiled acclaimations that you did it better, and experienced it more profoundly than anyone else"

Why such a a stupid, bitchy and personal comment?

"?Fact is, that no one else probably cares how you experienced it, or did it. Why on Earth should they? It should be a very personal thing...

If you object so people talking about their personal experiences of pregnancy and birth, why do you spend half your life on mumsnet posting and reading about it?

"well, that just proves you are precisely the type of person that, if I have to sit next to them at a dinner party. "

If I discuss my personal experiences of childbirth on a thread in which other people are also discussing their experiences of childbirth, and their feelings about it I must ergo be someone who talks about it without any encouragement at dinner parties?

"Titty I speak very confidently about my feelings re labour because I know my own body thanks to 7 years ttc and carrying hefty twins full term(luck again)."

So having done several days of labour, is it ok for me to assume that I know just how I'd feel after going through a difficult pregnancy with twins?

"I think it's a little patronising to say posters who have a problem with the Facebook poster are being defensive about there own choices for childbirth. It's on a par with the " having ishooos" accusation that frequently gets thrown in on certain other threads,it only serves to belittle a perfectly valid opinion and it isn't pleasant"

It's not 'unpleasant', patronising or inaccurate to point out that many women are left with unresolved, and often unexamined emotions following their experiences of childbirth and breastfeeding - actually it's a glaring truth. The threads about baby feeding that crop up here regularly (I assume that's what you mean with your reference to "certain other threads") are the strongest evidence of that, but if you needed any other evidence there is plenty of academic research out there which explores this issue.

"I take exception to this idea and implication that if one hasn't experienced 2 days of drug free labour one somehow isn't entitled to comment on childbirth"

You'd be entitled to take exception to it, except I didn't say that you had no right to comment!

"They may not have been the perfect births by your standards but they were by mine as they gave me 3 healthy, beautiful children."

Nasty and unfair comment - I haven't used moral language in any of my posts to describe different types of birth. I've said over and over again that the most important thing is to get through the birth with both mother and baby in the best possible physical and mental health. For some reason you've chosen to overlook this and misinterpret my other comments to make me seem judgemental and unkind.

"I don't know if you realise that you start an awful lot of your posts as "Has anyone said that?" or "Has anyone suggested that?" I am sure it is just your style"

No - not just my style, but an attempt to stop this descending into a nasty personal argument, which is what happens when people deliberately misrepresent other people's views in an attempt to make them seem vicious, stupid or unsympathetic.

It's so depressing - the huge number of 'strawman' arguments that crop up on any thread which is about things women feel sensitive about. God - it's hard enough to have a sensible discussion of some things without this sort of thing going on.

The comment about nature is a bit OTT but let's get it in perspective- she's a new mum and is clearly euphoric, and pretty damn chuffed with herself delivering her first baby drug- free. Why shouldn't she be? Natural doesn't equal easy : it bloody hurts, especially first time round when your body hasn't done it before and you're scared shitless! Anyway, your baby isn't here yet- you might also get through without drugs, and I bet you'll feel hugely excited too .

titty you have my sympathy and I am not interpreting your posts in the same way as other people seem to be.

I think there's a lot of one-upmanship on this thread and it's not really coming from those who had a 'natural' childbirth but more from those who feel they are in some kind of competition for the worst and most medicalised births. It's weird.

no one should feel smug about their birth experience, and no one should feel guilty or inadequate for having intervention or choosing particular things.

"So, whilst I can't comment (supposedly) on childbirth

Are we still playing Chinese Whispers then?

"I can comment at great length on being left in absolute agaony for hours...and frankly, I wouldn't recommend it, and neither do I feel superior for having experienced it"

Sorry to point out the glaringly obvious, but there is a difference between the pain you experience in labour and the pain you experience after a c/s. There's no rationale for being stoical and refusing pain relief after a c/s. There's a very clear rationale for refusing pain-relief in labour if your chief aim is to get through birth without exposing your baby or yourself to the danger of unnecessary interventions. And if you have a healthy birth following a drug free labour that's called on your deepest reserves of courage and stoicism, isn't it understandable that you're going to have a sense of achievement? Or do you begrudge anyone having that feeling after childbirth?

Re: feeling 'superior' - why do you interpret someone saying they feel 'proud' as actually meaning 'I think I'm better than everyone else'?

And LeQueen - can you stop making personal attacks on me? Please? It's really hurtful.

Tend to agree with duelling- I've also witnesses sometimes on mn this competition to have had the worst experience, or to hint that if you've managed labour drug free then it must have been easier, or shorter, or the baby must have been in a good position, or not induced.

Look, child birth hurts like buggery! We all know there are no medals for how you do it, that's a tired old cliche, but for many women, the aim to get through without drugs is all about the baby, not the mother, and why shouldn't a mother feel proud and amazed at herself? Of course births don't always go according to plan, and some women NEED medical intervention, not for pain relief but as a life saver. No one has said There's anything wrong with that!

FWIW I've had the whole range- natural first time, then cs, then vbac, none of them a picnic. I also agree that there is a big difference about not having post operative pain relief- at this point it has no impact on the baby, so there is no advantage to not having it, and shocking if a cock up meant it wasn't available, however, having said that, I was offered paracetamol after my cs so I thought that was just the norm!!

Titty, I'm sure there are some people who I agree with me on this. As I have said in my previous post I have nothing against people feeling proud and I also said women who have just given birth have every right to be proud.

The FB status referred to in the OP only annoys me because of the last sentence, namely: 'come on ladies we can do what nature intended' This sentence imo does not imply proud but judgement against other women's births. If she had left that off or finished the status off with a statement like 'I'm so proud' or something along those lines I for one would not be irritated by it.

What Yuno said. Glad we're all alive.

"come on ladies we can do what nature intended' This sentence imo does not imply proud but judgement against other women's births"

I see no judgement in there at all! Just an encouraging comment from someone who's had a good birth and wants to encourage other women to feel optimistic that they can do the same. Yes - you can interpret it as judgemental and unkind, but when you think about the circumstances in which it was written..... Well, it just strikes me as a bit defensive and ungenerous to interpret it in this way.

I agree totally with xwitch. How on earth can one interpret 'come on ladies, we can do what nature intended' as anything other than a rallying call to go drug free? How?

My best friend was a senior midwife at the hospital I was going to have ds. Sadly, she moved to another country a month before my due date. Anyway, the morning I had a 'show' i did what midwife told me and called them. The lady told me to come up for an examination. Dh and i did, i was left in a room for three hours, starving but only light contractions. Finally a doctor came and said it was indeed the start but only 1cm and to go home. Great,I never inteneded to stay, was only there becasue they told me to come. Then in walks a midwife with my notes, looks me up and down and sneers ' God, look at you, all done up with your make up on, hair done. I cant wait to see you in twelve hours when it's all came off' And you are not classed as in labour until 4cm. You shouldn't have came in, wasting our time! My dh was livid, he pointed out that they really dont sing from the same hymn sheet, that they told me to come in.

Went home very depressed at the thought i might get this particular midwife for delivery, she seemed to take a personal dislike to me. I did have my make up on, i put it on every day after a shower/bath, and i wash my hair every day, so what?

I stayed at home letting things progress on my own, then called dh at work to take me in when i couldnt handle the pain, i was 7cm. Again, they didn't believe me until the vaginal examination, they left me standing in the corridor for an hour, i was silently sobbing. Friday night in a brand new maternity hospital. Birthing pool was amazing, gas and air made me sick. After five hours things were not moving and i was told i may need section. I begged and got, an epidural. I now pray at night with thanks to the Russian man who invented them

Very long and scary last stage, disappearing staff (crises next room), ventous, heart dip, all the usual drama. By the time ds was born forceps, i was shaking and stunned and could barely hold him.

It could have made no difference, but in my heart i feel the rude and patronising treatment i received at the start slowed me down. My labour was 40 hours of torture. My best friend leaving the hospital didn't help. In many ways, if i had a home birth I think it could have gone quicker. Who knows.

But I think the 'nature intended' comment in deeply offensive. We already feel guilty the minute we are mothers, for all sorts of choices. I think all mums deserve a medal.

It's bloody hard, and it's not called labour for nothing

Haven't read all this. But don't see the problem with feeling proud after a natural birth or any birth if you wish.

The facebook woman probably posted in a moment of euphoria and happiness. And made a clunky comment.

I'd try not to give it too much thought.

(As an aside fb seems to cause more problems than the benefits it brings, so I don't use it. I don't care that much about other people's 'updates')

"Glad we're all alive"

I can see how it makes a lot of people feel more secure to set the bar REALLY low when it comes to childbirth.

All I can say is - thank f*ck there are health professionals out there whose expectations are higher than some of those expressed here.

And if I was a midwife working on a labour ward with really poor staffing ratios and a unusually high intervention rate, who regularly saw women being treated like crap in labour, I'd find lots of things in this thread very comforting - especially the often expressed view that as long as you get through birth alive and with a healthy baby you've no right to expect or hope for anything more.

I agree again titty

It scares me that people want to see a 'good' labour as one in which you don't die because you were able to have an epidural. There is nothing wrong at all with wanting pain relief or with having to have interventions but to suggest that without them you or your baby are lucky to be alive is just crass.

I wouldnt have an epidural if you paid me. Just the keys to the drugs cabinet :)

I can honestly say that the reason I had medical intervention whilst giving birth was absolutely not the fault of any midwife or doctor. It was entirely down to my body.

titty and Dueling you make a good point. If men were the ones having babies i can't help thinking the whole experience would be different. In my experience, too many decisions were left to fate. When i asked for the epidural i was told the aneasthatist was not on duty until 8 hours later, so too bad. In the end they got hold of one after two hours, but that really can't be good enough surely?

My friend I mentioned, she is a midwife who had both children by planned c sections. I was puzzled, I thought the whole 'being with women' thing of her profession meant she would prefer to have baby in a midwife led ward. She has straightforward pregnancies, was a low risk but said she knows too much of what goes wrong, and how understaffed and resourced the wards are that she wasn;t prepared to risk it. Plus she said in many ways modern labour wards are barbaric and the attitude of 'you're alive, what you moaning about' still exists

I saw a bit of that when I had my daughter Pefume. The midwife (who informed me she had no children) was very dismissive of my pain and told me to go and take paracetamol. They also sent the cleaner down when I pulled the emergency cord in the bathroom (I had lost my cervical plug, not the bath plug!) and again when my waters went 20 mins later, the cleaner appeared instead of a trained midwife. I was all alone and terrified. They didnt beleive me when the pain was so bad, when they looked I was 10cm and they had to take my ward bed instead of taking me in a wheelchair because I had gone too far! They just acted like I was making a fuss and had hours to go yet....wrong!!

Yes, agree again with duelling!

People often seem to think that from the moment of the onset of labour, there's only one way it can go- either the woman is hugely 'lucky!' and has a natural birth, or the birth ends in huge amounts of pain relief and intervention. This rather overlooks the fact that the majority of births have the potential to be non medicalised, and that actually many births could 'go' in different directions. I'm sure my first birth- big baby, poorly positioned, long labour, me scared witless, could have been hugely medicalised, but in fact was natural. These things aren't black and White in most cases.