to think schoolgirls shouldn't wear short skirts?

[cruelladepoppins]

I mean really short, barely bum-covering, as I saw at our local senior school open day yesterday evening?

It was just indecent. Even with thick tights. Do the boys (and teachers) just look in another direction?

How do the girls run around, bend to pick something up etc?

I was talking to the mum of one of them, and she says she's dreading when they do their work experience this year, she just can't get her DD to understand a pelmet might not be appropriate for a workplace. They think it's OK because everyone wears them to school. I'm not kidding, I didn't see a single knee-length skirt, nor even a just-above-the-knee one.

I'm the mother of boys (oh-oh) - any mothers of girls out there care to defend the teeny-skirt idea?

StewieGriffinsMom - both me and DW lecture in business schools. We would never appear in front a class full of business students in anything but a suit and a smart shirt. Jeans and T Shirt would sends completely the wrong signal.

Might I also add that many teachers also need to think more about what they wear. Increasingly, sloppy standards in the way the teachers dress undoubtedly leads to less strict adherence to uniform policy among pupils.

you do need to learn to distinguish between work and school BeenBeta.

We promise that our kids will dress appropriately for their workplace when they grow up.

But I don't want my daughters to be looking like some kind of scary horrid besuited person in their teens. I want them to look like teenagers. Who tend to wear short skirts. Which personally I do not mind (I am partial to a shortish skirt myself, and I am 47) in the slightest.

We had all this guff about 'professional looking clothing' way back in the Jurassic age when I was a sixth-former. I ignored it.

Perhaps the problem is that you lecture business.

Head over to the geology department. You'll see plenty of lecturers in shorts, walking boots and t-shirts. No one has any trouble taking what they say seriously.

Incidentally way back when I had a Proper Job I had a very fetching suit. It was a pinky-orange colour. With a short skirt. I looked very nice in it, fronting up the communications for a major charity.

Surely the obvious advantage of strict uniform guidelines is that it enables normal, hard-working, well-behaved teenagers to get their 'Ooh get me, I'm a rebel' fix by rolling up their skirt or undoing their top button.

I'd prefer them to get their daily dose of rebellion that way, rather than them needing to branch out into something with more serious consequences, like bunking off school, or smoking or buying vodka from the corner shop.

AgonyBeetle I was in the middle of typing something similar but yours is much more eloquent

I think the short skirts with the thick tights on a reasonalbe sized girl look fine. But short skirts with bare legs aon the larger of frame don't look so good. My dds school banned jersey skirts in her last year......

Where DW worked, some women who turned up to work in inappropriate clothing were spoken to or sent home. The men always wore suit, shirt, tie.

BeenBeta, why on earth do you conflate business values with educational values? Oh I remember, it?s because everyone does it now, including the last government. It?s completely wrong headed. Business is only a subset of the world, it?s only one way of doing things, and to do some things, it is completely the wrong way. It has a distinct set of values including an importance attached to superficially glossy and conservative appearances. The ultimate aim of business is profit.
The ultimate aim of education is to be a knowledgeable, confident and powerful thinker.

Equiping someone to earn a living is the most important objective of education.

Most people who work have to wear some kind of uniform. Why not at school?

"I judge the boys are DSs school the same way. Those that turn up looking a mess and in non standard uniform are not serious either"

Clearly you need to change schools then if it bothers you so much. Boys turning up like that would not be tolerated at DS1s school.

" it is the mothers' attitudes that drive the girls choices as to what they wear and how they wear it."

This makes you sound pathetic. Of course it's all the mother's fault. Probably because the father has his head too far up his own arse to notice anything.

I'm with the uniform haters ..beenbeta what about when teenagers go to uni..which is between learning and work,no uniforms there is there,should they wear suits to uni?

25yo Me was a completely different person to 15yo Me.

At 15 I was hiking my skirt up to my ears, wearing badly applied make up and generally being a bit silly. At 20 I was in uni and going through a goth stage (even worse make up! but the skirts were ankle length) by 25 I was working in a international law firm in Singapore (suits), at 30 I was the mother of one setting up a new law firm in London (smart casual to enable climbing under desks to sort out wiring), now at 33 I am the mother of 2, moving to Oz and looking at setting up my own business (currently in Mum uniform of jeans + t-shirt).

At no point over the last 18 years has my penchant for rolling up my skirt, baring my midriff and generally acting like a 15 year old girl affected my credibility/success.

I?d say that?s the least important objective of education, Beta. When you are at school is the only time in your life (for many) that you can focus on other values than those of business. Are you really so myopic and brainwashed that you don?t know there are any others? It is a great privilege to be able to live your life in a way that is not primarily business-orientated and it is a complete and terrible waste to bring business, gratuitously and destructively, into education.
Of course some people do earn a living without wearing business dress or adopting business values and they are very lucky and, usually, talented. Closing children?s minds off to those possibilities before they are even out of school is one of the most tragic things we can do to them.

I've not had time to read this thread - am slightly stunned by the length of it.

Why is this a problem? DD has just started at a girls' grammar school where they simply have a rule that skirts must be no more than 6cm above the knee when kneeling. If they are caught with rolled up skirts they get penalty points (which is a big deal). The parents and kids all sign a 'contract' that school rules will be upheld (also includes no make-up). There are couple of styles from 2 suppliers and they come in normal and longer length (and evidently xxlong for some of the muslim girls).

As far as I can tell the teachers aren't obsessed with this, but the clear rule is there so that if anyone starts pelmetting they can easily sort it out.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Now, when they get off the bus in the evening there is a bit more leg than regulation showing but because they've got a sensible starting point its not outrageous.

YY, sensible starting point is good, and minimises the knicker factor.

Dd's school have kilts which can't easily be shortened at the hem and get bulky quite quickly if rolled up at the waist, which restricts teh more adventurous girls.

At school I wore tiny skirt with huge slits in the thighs, Knee high "fuck me" boots, loads and loads of makeup, non regulation school shirts (tight fitting, slightly see through).. and got top grades, and an unconditional entry into Uni.

Obviously my choice of clothes reflected just how seriously I took my education

If you can't push boundaries when you are a teen then when can you do it? At least clothing doesn't cause you harm.

At least clothing doesn't cause you harm.

It shouldn't do, but if there's after school clubs the girls will be on a public bus. Of course they ought to be able to safely dress as you describe but in this non-ideal world it just seems wiser to have some limits.

SoupDragon - I seriously doubt any DD would listen to her father's views on how she dressed.

Of course both parents should back each other up but given what I am reading here - there are clearly mothers who think it is just fine for DD to wear inappropriate clothing at school.

BeenBeta, you didn't respond to my earlier post.

In fact, my daughter is not yet born, but when she reaches an age where it's appropriate to discuss these things, I shall teach her that people do judge by appearances, many employees will think as you do, and it may be as well to go along with it in order to get where you want to be.

I shall also teach her that - in my opinion - the people who hold these views are short-sighted and foolish.

I shall not be teaching her that she should take on other people's prejudices as her problem.

Hopefully she'll be able to shrug her shoulders and see this issue as one more piece of nonsense that women have to deal with to succeed, but not internalise it too much.

" I seriously doubt any DD would listen to her father's views on how she dressed. "

Some would and some wouldn't in the same way that some would and some wouldn't listen to their mother's views on dressing.

I've never understood why this is still such an issue. Just ban skirts outright and have the boys and girls both wear trousers. I don't understand why girls are still wearing skirts if they have such a history of causing problems.

I think Madinitials went to the same school as me....scary Biology teacher with her 50p to measure shoe heels