To think that schools shouldn't just be filling DD's head with God

[choufleur]

Ok he's only 4 and only in 3rd week in reception but he's come home talking about how God made the world and we're in His hands, and he's just thanked God for his tea.

I don't believe in God. Up til now I've tried to explain to DS that some people believe in God, some people believe in other Gods and actually creationism is not real we evolved.

Tell me they will also teach him about other beliefs please.

YADNBU Choufleur - when my DS was 8, he had the Deputy Head who was a fully paid-up lentil-eating sandal-wearing brainwashed evangelical Christian (in a good non-denominational primary). He came home telling me for weeks how excited the class were as the teacher gradually built them up for a daytrip to his village, and how exciting it was going to be for them to meet his vicar. I was LIVID that my child, or any children, especially so young, were being groomed for this and hotfooted it to see the Head to register my protest. I would not have minded an educational visit to anywhere eg cathedral, Sikh temple, Mosque etc. in the name of education, but there is a big difference between that and showing impressionable kids your wonderful church. He did not attend the visit and the teacher left shortly afterwards - you've guessed it - to become a Head elsewhere :( I am a secondary teacher, and despite covering a wide range of subjects from MFL, Citizenship & Form Time to Business Studies, no student of mine would ever know my politics, any religious beliefs or any strong views I might entertain. It's an abuse of the role of teacher to encourage young people to take the same view as you. Good luck.

Some MNers seem to believe that everybody is in their own position: living in an urban area where there is actually a choice of schools. In rural areas it is not uncommon for all the schools (or the only school) within travelling distance to be religious ones.

Where is the point in blaming the OP for the choice she made after she has already explained that there was no choice in this matter.

Albertcamus it's in standard teachers' contracts that they must not try to influence their students' political opinions. Shame there's othing discrete in there about religion.

I went to a C of E and we just had assembly everyday and then did the other things other schools did. TBH I thought it was the other way around now where schools were not allowed to teach through any religious bias and I thought it was pretty much extinct.
Most of the people I went to school with were also not religious but back then that was the norm and everyone just accepted it coming from a C of E school. We also attended the church at celebrations and took part. I understand you are not religious and no one should be forced to send their children to these schools but personally I thik it gives them a sort of structure and afterall Britain is `supposed' to be a christian country and I see that as part of our culture and heritage even if not in a personal faith way.

Church schools are not all entirely state funded-it depends on their status, e.g. voluntary aided.

The curriculum in secondary schools isn't predominantly atheist-they are bound by law to have collective worship of a broadly Christian nature. It is all in the 1998 Education act.

Teachers shouldn't be giving a strong personal view but if a DC is at a C of E school the school will have a close relationship with the vicar, will go to church services and will quite possibly have prayers at lunchtime and at the end of the day in addition to assemblies.
A non denominational school will have the collective worship, but probably not the above. A church visit is in the curriculum of all schools, I have certainly done it in year 1.

I am surprised at the amount of people who give birth and seem to think that they can dictate their own DCs beliefs. You can influence, but there is nothing to say that your DC will think the same as you. My friend, an occasional churchgoer, has 2 DCs, one is very anti and won't even have her DC christened and the other bases his whole social life at university around the local church and the Christian union. They had the same upbringing, but have made up their own minds. Why should this matter to my friend? Why should it it alter their relationship?

"As I've said. i'm not bothered enough to drive miles every morning and afternoon to take DS to a non-religious school, as I think it's more important for him to have friends nearby."

Surely it is easy enough just to temper what he is being told.

State schools here are secular but initially RE was more Christianity focused I would say.

State schools are not secular! I do think they should make this clear. There are no secular state schools in England-apologies if you are in a different country diddl.
I would have thought that what they are told at school would have led to interesting philosphical discussions-much better than 'mummy says-end of'!

Yes, voluntary aided schools do have a different status Pisces. I think if you choose to send your child to a partly funded school, you should expect influence from then church, in the same way that you would if it were a jewish school, or a catholic school. I wonder if there are any areas in the country where the voluntary aided school is the only choice for parents?

I just think that a school wholly funded by the state should be secular. I am well aware that secular state education does not exist in this country at present, but I think that it should. The church has a massive influence over the education of our children - many many many governing boards are headed by the local vicar, for example, who then has direct power to appoint the head, and set the tone of the school. Some CofE schools are mildly CofE. Many are very very strongly influenced.

You can't get secular schools until church and state are separate.
The problem is that in rural areas the church school is often the only choice, but in a rural area you have a limited choice of everything e.g. the village shop will have a limited range of goods. If you want a wide choice of everything you have to go to an area with a larger population.
There are lots of church schools because they were the only body to provide education. Board schools then came into being in the places that hadn't a school. Most villages had a school.

In the normal course of events people don't come across the fact that UK is a Christian country and then their DC goes to school and 'wham' they are faced with it and it is a shock! Every few months on here people are outraged because they chose a 'secular school' and they get religion-they don't understand that C of E is the state religion and they are state schools. They must remember it from their school days and nothing has changed. I sometimes think that perhaps the parent went to a church school themselves and didn't realise that there isn't much difference. It is all clear in the education acts.

snoozathon - good point, wish there was something in the contract. A job with influence over kids should not be a vehicle for promoting any of your own convictions.

No, I´m not in the UK.

But my point is that even though the schools are secular, initially RE classes were Christianity based, and other beliefs weren´t touched on.

That came later-certainly after three weeks

There is off course no assembly with prayers & hymns.

"off course"?

As another poster has mentioned the stuff in the OP probably comes from the song about God having the whole world in his hands, and grace at lunch - not that bad, surely?

For what it's worth, I went to a CofE school (and Brownies/Guides attached to the same church), and was agnostic by the time I was in secondary education. We had hymns, but some of them were quite good, and occasionally we did stuff like harvest festival - but I don't actually remember anything else specific.

Albertcamus - do you think telling students your beliefs is the same as promoting them? Can teachers ever tell students what religion they follow (if they do) for example?

Iggi999 - your questions is really difficult for me to answer, so often they (I teach 11-19 year olds) ask you with enormous respect and genuine interest what you think about 'xyz', anything from a big topic like abortion to relatively small issues such as what music you like/dislike. Of course it's tempting to answer truthfully, and I think it's important to remember that they are impressionable, it's not the same as debating with friends or even your own children, and our job is to teach students to see issues from as many angles as possible. I love teaching Citizenship, which raises all sorts of issues, and often play Devil's advocate in order to stimulate a good debate. I do, however, believe that no teachers in non-denominational schools should present their beliefs in such a way as to encourage young people to follow them. This is the thin end of a very dangerous wedge ...

I do see your point, and I agree that teachers shouldn't be trying to persuade children to vote like them or follow their religions. But on a deeper level I think children will be influenced by anyone they look up to, so a teacher you admired would be a role model for you and you might copy them - I'm not sure how teachers could (or even should) avoid that happening.

My Nigerian colleague is really aggrieved because he believes the claims that the underpants plane bomber, privately educated in Nigeria, became radicalised when sent to FE here in London ... are we too liberal in some places? I missed the C4 programme on Faith Schools in August due to being on holiday, but hope to look into this more deeply this school year as I've taken on leadership of Citizenship. My school serves a mixed area and we have lots of students of both sexes who look up to the teachers, inevitably they aspire to 'be' like them, but my 30-ish colleagues sometimes discuss this and laugh about how quickly influences such as music, fashion, attitudes to drugs , sexuality etc. have changed even in the few years since they left full-time education. I think young people will always have minds of their own; the joy of teaching is encouraging a healthy, informed debate which they enjoy and encourages them to respect each other and their teacher.

What we need is to have proper state schools where the child's education is put first and grooming/recruiting for the church has to be done after school. We will eventually, but it will be too late for many children.

Saying Grace may not seem that bad, (if only it stopped at that) but once you allow religion in school there is no easy way to draw the line.

"mummy, my teacher says that people like uncle fred are going to burn in agony for eternity because he doesn't go out with girls"

Imagine if the only school with space for your child was one run by Nick Griffin.

If we allow any private group to promote its beliefs in school we must also agree to a BNP school for the same reasons.

"once you allow religion in schools there is no easy way to draw the line"

The thing is, that in this country there are no secular schools. Even normal state schools are supposed to offer collective worship everyday... We live in a country where we are not "citizens" but are "subjects" to the queen, who is Head of the Church. The debate about whether a four year old should be singing hymns is actually a bigger debate than perhaps we realised?

According to Wiki...

"The question of disestablishment of the Church of England is still current, often tied with the position of the English monarch as "Supreme Governor" of the Church (see Act of Settlement 1701), but there is no popular demand for disestablishment."

But perhaps there is on Mumsnet??

My dd went to a primary school in a rural area - there were no other state schools which were not CofE affiliated. So tough. Those people who say 'you sent him to a state school, if you didn't like it you shoukd have sent him elsewhere' clearly have no idea.

I now live in a small city - of all the primary schools in teh city NONE are non-religious. So that scuppers that theory about choice.

To be honest though, as much as it pissed me off DD coming home talking about 'jesus says', I just let her carry on talking about it, and didn't rubbish it. I would not have thought that would be fair for a 5 year old.

As she grew up she made her own mind up about things, she is now 14 and probably an atheist, at the very least very doubtful about the good religion brings.

YANBU We sent our DD to the non Cof E school in the next village as DH is very firmly atheist.

However now Yr1 she come home talking about God and what he does..

DH dealt with it by saying alot of people believe different things, so the God Father David (the local vicar does assemblies) is not necessarily the same god that people who live in India or china belive in. There are lots of different beliefs etc etc.

Use it as a talking point and move on. And totaly agree that location (also in the sticks) dictates the type of religous education

'And, as one poster has said here, the sky hasn't fallen in because my parents and I believe different things. I'm a different person from them, they recognise that, and it doesn't change my relationship with them.'

I was the poster-I just can't get my head around the fact that you have a DC and you tell them what to believe!! I can't see the harm in them getting all views and making up their own minds. I know a vicar who took himself off to church at 11yrs old. He had no experience of it and hung around and asked the vicar if he could go in. At the end of the service he went up to him and told he he was going to be a vicar when he grew up-and he was! In the same way there is many a vicar's DC who grows up and doesn't believe in God. There are DCs of vegans who eat meat, DCs who grow up in meat eating households who become vegetarians etc etc.
I think this is healthy-why do you have to censure what your DC hears and why should they think the same as you? You give birth to someone -you don't own them body and soul (if you believe in soul!!)They are free spirits. There is no reason why this should alter your relationship. Variety is the spice of life.

i cant get why some folk are so intolerant of religion {often in a sl fundanentalist way...ie'my view is the only correct one')
get over it and dont be so middleclass and precious about being unfortunate enough to have a 'nice' school nearby instead of a scary violent and poverty-stricken one
PS atheists AND people of faith can ALL be pleasant and/or unpleasant and /or SELF-RIGHTEOUS.
As for the cliche of 'religion has caused so much harm in the past etc' give it a rest please!! That is obvoiusly the case but it's not the cause of ALL the problems surely???