to be worried about this consent form?

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

DD (12) has brought home the NHS Consent form for the HPV Immunisation for Year 8s.

We have decided, in a discussion involving me, DD and DH, that we do not want her to have the vaccine.

However, I am upset that the form says : (quote) Please note that while your consent is important, if you refuse consent the vaccination may still be given

It also says, 'Reason consent refused (PTO for additional space to give us your reason for your decision' - do I really have to give details?

AIBU to feel concerned?

Light - my dd has not yet had her HPV. She is now out of the remit of school health but our GP surgery is happy to administer. There shouldn't really be any 'admin' issues if you decide to wait a while, as she moves through school there will be a rolling catch-up programme.

Cat64: I think its because only 12 year olds who are Gillick competent are allowed to sign for themselves, and 12-14 is a grey area with regards to this. It is generally done on a case by case basis (at least in my experience). So if the child is thought to be mature enough to make the decision themselves (i.e. understands that there can be side effects and that there is a very small risk of them having a nasty reaction, and understands what they are actually being vaccinated against) they can over rule but if they are not mature enough or do not properly understand then the parents consent/non consent is the deciding factor IYSWIM. It is a policy I firmly agree with TBH.

As for the whole issue of consent, everyone has the right to decide for themselves and for their DC until the DC are mature enough to make the decision themselves. Most people think that vaccinations are safe and the right thing to do (including me), others do not or have specific medical circumstances which mean that it is not safe. Neither side has the right to bully the other about it (never say no to a good debate though ).
The only thing I don't get is that a couple of people on here have said that they object to the NHS asking them why they don't want to vaccinate. Why do you object to them asking? If you don't want to answer you don't have to but surely it is useful for them to know why people don't want to make the vaccination and make sure that the objection is not based on factually incorrect information (which for the majority of people on here I don't think is the case, they just seem to have a different interpretation of the statistics). As long as they do not then try to convince you that you are wrong (again assuming that the objection is not caused by something factually incorrect*), then I can't see what problem there is. I'm not trying to offend anyone just generally curious!

*By factually incorrect I mean a study that doesn't exist or something like that, not a different interpretation of existing evidence.

If we're back to talking about consent it's worth reading the university of Oxford ethics blog.

I suppose asking for a reason when none has to be given could be seen as bringing pressure.

I remember when ds3 was hospitalised with a seizure and I was answering the standard tick boxes with a nurse. 'up to date with 'vaccinations'?' I said no and started to justify. The nurse stopped me and said 'he's' your son and that's your decision you don't have to justify it to anyone'. She's actually right.

The consultants didn't really ask for justification either, although they were interested in my reasons (which they accepted). The only person who asked questions was a junior doctor, who looked about 10 and was completely unable to answer any of my questions (genuine questions - lack of vaccination isn't a fixed status - after all the risk-benefit ratio changes with age).

Where are the bullies now?
Have no objection to argument but that sort of ridicule and abuse pisses me off a very great deal indeed.

Same here . Agree with me or else mentality , bully is an accurate decription.

"I suppose asking for a reason when none has to be given could be seen as bringing pressure".

Yes: it's a very passive aggressive thing. "What? We're only asking.." And yet an inexperienced and unsure parent, looking for information from a variety of sources, can be made to feel stupid and inarticulate and ill-informed, which isn't fair.

It's my decision, and I don't have to even talk about it, if I don't want to, never mind justify it.

If they are asking why not on the consent for your reasoning it is with one purpose only. That is to demolish your argument in front of your child.

Don't give a reason, Light. I would write my email address and say if they want further information to contact me.

I'll copy below some of the ethics blog in case people are having trouble reading it (sounds as if it's crashing some computers). original link here Fascinating blog though I'm going to send it to a friend who researches consent. Anyway the extract:

The consent form nodded inelegantly to Gillick, asserting that ?[t]he decision to consent or refuse is legally [the girl?s], as long as she understands the issues in giving consent.? There was no indication given, in the consent form or the accompanying literature, as to whether and if so how that understanding would be tested. The reality is that it won?t be tested at all.

If parental consent is refused, the parent is instructed to identify the ?Reason consent refused?, and is told to turn over the page ?for additional space to give us your reason for your decision.?

The request for a reason for refusal is perhaps a well-meaning attempt to ensure that medically misguided reasons for refusal can be addressed. If, for instance, a parent refuses because she thinks that there is a significant chance of anaphylactic shock, further discussion about the magnitude of that risk relative to the chance of HPV-related disease is warranted. Fair enough. But the request won?t be read that way by parents. They will think that there is a legal obligation to provide a reason, and since the explanatory leaflet suggests strongly that there is every reason to have the vaccine, and none not to, the effect will be to force reluctant parents to sign up because they can?t articulate a reason for not signing.

The case for some sort of HPV vaccination is overwhelming. But the strength of that case should not allow the normal safeguards for ensuring appropriate consent to be ignored.

The NHS has decided that it will pay only for Cervarix. But Cervarix is not the only vaccine. Many other countries have opted instead for Gardasil, produced by Sanofi-Pasteur and Merck. This is not the place to argue the relative merits of Cervarix and Gardasil. It is enough to say that there is a good case for saying that Gardasil is a better vaccine that Cervarix. (See, for instance, here and here). The UK seems to have opted for Cervarix because it is cheap. Shouldn?t any proper process of pre-vaccination counselling for Cervarix include a mention of its main competitor? Parents or girls themselves, having the full facts, might opt to pay themselves for Gardasil. There is no mention in the explanatory leaflet of any alternative to Cervarix. The clear impression is that if you want to avoid cervical cancer you will have Cervarix.

Thanks MrsT, it did do something to my pute and was excellent to read.

You know this link between Cervarix mfctrs GSK and the gov is a real thing. Staff cross-over and so on.

Apples , claig ( and any other non bullies ) if you have any links about the vaccine id love to read them . Sifting through this stuff makes difficult reading.

The cervical cancer stats don't include all the women who have abnormal smears where pre-cancerous cells are detected and action is required.

In the end what you choose to do with regards to your DCs is your business. As long as you accept the consequences. In a world where parents are increasingly reluctant to let their children play unsupervised because of perceived risk, it amazes me that people are so dismissive of proven risks.

Without getting into the why/why not's WRT getting the vaccine, I would be concerned about the consent form and I would be inclined not to send my DD to school the day(s) they were giving the vaccine to ensure she did not get it, if I felt that strongly about it.

YANBU.

Thank you, saintlydamemrsturnip
I did not give a reason on the form, just left it blank.

Having spoken to the nurse, who said they would not give the vaccine (where neither we nor have consented) without speaking to us again, I think I must expect a call to try and persuade us to change our minds!

I am still a bit concerned that the nurse will try and persuade DD on the day, but not enough to keep her away from school. I trust that DD is happy with her/our choice.

dignified, having read some of your posts I think you are the bully here. I stopped posting as I believe I have made my points clear. You keep flogging a dead horse and enjoy.

dignified,
Here is an interview with Dr. Diane Harper, who is an expert on the HPV vaccine

www.huffingtonpost.com/marcia-g-yerman/an-interview-with-dr-dian_b_405472.html

and here is another interview with Dr. Diane Harper. Click on the small video to the right of the article to see her interviewed on TV.

cbs4.com/iteam/Gardisil.Girls.Vaccine.2.718592.html

Here is an article about Gabrielle Swank, who fell ill shortly after receiving a Gardasil shot.
www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/cover-story/Shot-Through-the-Heart.html?page=2&comments=1&showAll=

Go to youtube. There are hundreds of news stories and testimonies from parents and girls themselves. Spend a few hours on youtube. Type something like "hpv cervarix" or "hpv gardasil" and lots of info comes up.

Here is a CBS TV news report about Gabi Swank

Here is another CBS TV news report about Gardasil

The US National Vaccine Information system has lots of articles on Gardasil
www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/hpv.aspx

Also mothers whose daughters were taken ill shortly after receiving Gardasil have a website with lots of information
truthaboutgardasil.org/
and they have lots of videos explaining their findings on youtube

Most of this information is about Gardasil, which is used in the US. In the UK, Cervarix is used.

dignified, having read some of your posts I think you are the bully here. I stopped posting as I believe I have made my points clear. You keep flogging a dead horse and enjoy.

Missmoopy , im not keen on being called a bully when i know im not, perhaps you could elaberate ?
Maintaining i want to find out more is NOT bullying , and i assure you you havent seen me calling people names such as moronic , idiotic , half arsed ect.
What exactly do you mean ?

Thanks for the links. Thats worrying stuff.

saintlydamemrsturnip
just a thanks for the Ox Uni link.

As that is my part of the world, it seems highly likely that the form they are discussing is the one I have received.

Thanks for explaining the question thing. I guess I kind of get that it could feel like pressure. I'm generally one of those people who irritates everyone around by asking a million questions (like to understand everything I guess ) but I promise I'm never trying to pressure anyone! I'm just nosey curious.

LightShinesInTheDarkness Would the nurse even see your DD? At my school any girl who had not told her form tutor that she wanted the vaccination was kept away from all of the nurses. The girls not being vaccinated were not allowed out of the classroom (vaccinations were done on a rolling basis through the morning in lesson time) so they didn't feel pressured to talk to the nurse or change their minds as everyone else was getting done.