to be worried about this consent form?

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

DD (12) has brought home the NHS Consent form for the HPV Immunisation for Year 8s.

We have decided, in a discussion involving me, DD and DH, that we do not want her to have the vaccine.

However, I am upset that the form says : (quote) Please note that while your consent is important, if you refuse consent the vaccination may still be given

It also says, 'Reason consent refused (PTO for additional space to give us your reason for your decision' - do I really have to give details?

AIBU to feel concerned?

It's just a smear, Coalition: you know this has been rehearsed. This argument has been round the houses and people are right to be concerned. It is not for you (I mean, the people who want to assert this action) to demand proof why it shouldn't be done: that is rather aggressive.

If someone doesn't want to have their child vaccinated with HPV, quite frankly, that's the end of it. No one is demanding that you don't vaccinate yours. And you have no right to demand that anyone vaccinate theirs, and provide proof of why they don't want to.

dignified - In order to demonstrate whether or not your concerns are rational.

To who ? I need to demonstrate my concerns are rational to who and why ? I dont care whether other people think their rational or not , im not on trial and dont have to " prove " anything , we are all free to make our own choices . Again , i havent asked anyone in favour of the vaccinate to demonstrate that their lack of concern is rational. I think discussions like this go to show what happens when someone questions something or doesnt go along with the herd , and why the majority find it hard to accept that others sometimes have a differant point of veiw.

I should say suffered brain damage, paralysis or even death shortly after taking the vaccine rather than side effects, since it is not proven that the vaccine caused it.

I'm sorry, but it's not a smear. I haven't taken any position on the rationality of the argument. Dignifies as asked why she was being asked for evidence. I said it is to demonstrate that her concerns are rational.

This has nothing to do with the consent issue. No one has to provide a reason for refusing consent. I made this point up the thread.

Where am I smearing anyone?

Unless people question things now, it won't be long before we have mandatory vaccinations. There are often attempts to sway opinion into accepting this. How long before it is a reality?

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-126159/BMA-rejects-compulsory-jabs.html

You can't just assert that an argument is rational - you have to demonstrate it. That is why evidence was asked for.

You dont coalition , because it wasnt an argument , it was a statement regarding my own personal concerns that doesnt have to be demonstrated.

If i had said that i thought all of those who were going to vaccinate were wrong and that you were endangering your children ect ect, it would be apropriate for me to be asked for evidence to support this.

But that isnt what happened , i just stated my own concerns which i dont have to rationalise , demonstrate or justify to anyone.

dignified - That is true. You can have whatever concerns you like and you dont have to rationalise , demonstrate or justify to anyone.

However, unless you are willing to do those things you don't have a right to expect me to respect them.

Even a third of nurses said they would refuse to take the swine flu vaccine over concerns for safety. According to some spokespeople, they were also irrational, and were urged to change their minds.

Dignified has raised no concerns at all other than some moronic tin hat type "hasn't been tested enough" without actually stating what her concerns are.

Let's try to explain this simply. The vaccine has successfully tested on rats because physiologically the reproductive system (and specifically the part that that the HPV vaccine impacts) of rats is near as the same as a humans that for the purposes of a clinical trial they can be treated as identical.

Now in the case of Opren and TGN1412 the issues were caused because the animal testing process was insufficient: basically the animal based trials didn't test the same thing as the human clinical trial. To give an example, you /would/ use swine to test a drug with respect to the kidneys because physiologically the kidneys in pigs and humans are identical. You /wouldn't/ use swine to test a drug concerning the urinary system as even though the urinary system is in a large part the kidneys, as a whole there are too many differences between the urinary systems in pigs and humans to make any results valid.

Now, this isn't to say that the whole process is fool proof and something won't slip through animal tests that causes problems in human trials but the process is documented well enough that it boils down to that old chestnut again: risk. And the risk presented from a drug that has successfully been through the whole testing process is always - by its very nature - less risk than the health issue the treatment is meant to address.

Now once again, please explain the physiological differences between humans and rats that make the tests concerning the HPV vaccine invalid?

In short, you're free to make any decision you wish. I think its a real shame that you're willing to risk your child's health because of ignorance but it's the price of living in a free country. I just hope you never regret having made that decision.

Oh and whoever came out with the "big bad aspartame" bullshit, stop making yourself look even more ignorant than you already do.

Oh, and I have nothing to do with "big pharma". I just have a brain.

However, unless you are willing to do those things you don't have a right to expect me to respect them.

But presumably you expect others to respect your lack of concern , although you havent rationalised, semonstreated or justified them ?
Without being rude coalition , i do not know you and couldnt care less whether you respect my concerns or not. I however , will continue to respect your lack of them , and anyone elses.

What does the fact they they are nurses have to do with their rationality or otherwise?

"moronic"?

What is this? Concerned parents are morons day? Get over yourself.

Has anyone flashed a white coat yet? It can't be long. At least the "moron" comment is a bit of a change from the patronising "there there dear" normally doled out. Though not, it must be said, any improvement.

The interesting thing is that there are treatments and drugs in everyday use that are far less tested and far less understood than vaccines but you never hear a peep about them do you?

Is this idiotic approach to vaccination just the fashion nowadays?

dignified - No, I expect people to engage with the issue. Shit or get off the pot.

Now once again, please explain the physiological differences between humans and rats that make the tests concerning the HPV vaccine invalid

Like i said earlier , im under no obligation to explain anything to you and i dont much care for the moronic comment either. If you want to keep insisting that animals and humans react exactly the same to certain compounds and chemicals theres really no point having any dscussion with you . Your comment that " Neither Opren not TGN1412 were related to differences between rats' and humans' physiology " shows how little you know.

dignified - No, I expect people to engage with the issue. Shit or get off the pot.

What , even when they make it clear they dont want to engage the issue with you ? Do you normally have such a problem when other people express a differant veiw to yours ?

"Like i said earlier , im under no obligation to explain anything to you and i dont much care for the moronic comment either."

You're not. But if you continually try to argue the point that the HPV is "not proven" or what ever bullshit excuse you're using to put your kids life at risk then expect to be picked up on it.

"If you want to keep insisting that animals and humans react exactly the same to certain compounds and chemicals theres really no point having any dscussion with you ."

That's not what I've said at all. That you think it is shows how little you understand about what I have said. What I've actually said is that particular biological systems within particular animals are understood to be sufficiently similar to be treated as identical for the purposes of clinical testing. Do you understand the difference?

"Your comment that " Neither Opren not TGN1412 were related to differences between rats' and humans' physiology " shows how little you know."

I have explained, in quite some detail why this is the case. Please explain where I'm going wrong?

It's not that you're ignorant (and you are - very) that I object to. As you've already said you're free to do as you wish. I object that you post utter bullshit and then when its rightly torn to shreds you continue to argue the same bullshit point or say "I'm under no obligation to say so". It's like my DD used to act many years ago - running around with her hands over her ears screaming "nah nah nah".

Let me put it this way, you've made up your mind regardless of the evidence or facts. You don't understand and you don't want to understand.

But if you continually try to argue the point that the HPV is "not proven" or what ever bullshit excuse you're using to put your kids life at risk then expect to be picked up on it.

What is it that YOU dont understand ? . I,ll say it again , im not arguing with your choice to vaccinate , i simply stated that i was undecided , intended to get more info , that i had some concerns. Why is that a problem for you ? It is in fact YOU that is arguing because you are getting angry that you have failed to make me change my mind and are now clearly resorting to insults.

I think that if i was going to find info to support this one way or the other i would seek out specific proffesional opinions and weigh them up accordingly. If being moronic means im not willing to abandon my concerns because an internet stranger says i should so be it.

Some of the experts want boys to receive the cervical cancer jab, despite they fact that they haven't got a cervix.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/2644994/Boys-should-also-be-given-cervical-cancer-jab-say-experts.html

As someone says in the following article

"What's next? Are they going to demand that all girls be vaccinated against prostate cancer just in case they engage in oral sex with men who have enlarged prostate glands? Yes, this sounds stupid. It is stupid. And yet it's not too stupid to be embraced by Big Pharma."

www.naturalnews.com/024383_HPV_vaccine_health.html

I think its a real shame that you're willing to risk your child's health because of ignorance but it's the price of living in a free country. I just hope you never regret having made that decision.

The goverment boasts that his jab could save 400 lives a year. Could. 400. From what i can gather shes got more chance of being hit by a car than she has getting cervical cancer .

dignified - Yes - if someone just says "I don't agree!" over and over again, they aren't adding anything other than noise.

dignified - Yes - if someone just says "I don't agree!" over and over again, they aren't adding anything other than noise.

I havent said i dont agree over and over nor did i invite " challenge time " . But if someone did say they didnt agree repeatedly , that isnt noise , thats somebody simply expressing the fact they dont agree. Possibly it could be said that you are adding noise by continually stating that you dont agree .

Most people dont interpretate someone saying they dont agree as " noise ".

The Daily Mail and Natural News. What next, Whale.to?

"What is it that YOU dont understand ? . I,ll say it again , im not arguing with your choice to vaccinate , i simply stated that i was undecided , intended to get more info , that i had some concerns. Why is that a problem for you ? It is in fact YOU that is arguing because you are getting angry that you have failed to make me change my mind and are now clearly resorting to insults.

I think that if i was going to find info to support this one way or the other i would seek out specific proffesional opinions and weigh them up accordingly. If being moronic means im not willing to abandon my concerns because an internet stranger says i should so be it."

Because in an earlier post you stated a list of things that you objected to / had concerns about wrt to the vaccine. These concerns have been - in detail - explained and why you're either wrong or simply don't know enough about the testing process to come to an informed decision.

And yet you continue to argue the same discredited points. Look at your half arsed, haven't-got-a-clue-but-I-read-it-on-some-anti-vax-site about TGN1412.

If you were willingly, genuinely interested in a discussion then you'd actually try to understand what has been posted. But you haven't, all you've done is blindly plough the same idiotic path.

I have no problem with people not understanding or looking for advice on a subject. There are a whole heap of things that I'm genuinely clueless about. The difference is that I don't attempt to argue the toss about these subjects with people who do you know what they're talking about.

I'll say it again. You don't understand and you don't want to understand. You're not interested in finding anything out. You've made up your mind and aren't about to let silly things like facts get in the way.