to be worried about this consent form?

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

DD (12) has brought home the NHS Consent form for the HPV Immunisation for Year 8s.

We have decided, in a discussion involving me, DD and DH, that we do not want her to have the vaccine.

However, I am upset that the form says : (quote) Please note that while your consent is important, if you refuse consent the vaccination may still be given

It also says, 'Reason consent refused (PTO for additional space to give us your reason for your decision' - do I really have to give details?

AIBU to feel concerned?

ChippingIn - Australia you didn't use to get given your child benefit until you'd vaccinated and couldn't attend school, parts of USA have the same policy I believe.
I do think there should be more information and transparency.

THe NHS has targets to encourage it to do its job and so that the vaccination program is actually delivered. If we hadn't had the targets then there's no way the huge no of girls would have been vaccinated - there would have been no resources to do it. That doesn't mean that the NHS will vaccinate against patient wishes/ use underhand techniques etc!

Re the not giving it because you want her to decide for herself - well that's fine enough as long as you understand the additional risk that you are therefore placing your daughter in.

Re "How would they know if she was allergic to the vaccine" arguement - well as a parent you tell them that she is allergic, you tell her that she is allergic.

Although vaccination is given by NHS the nurses giving the vaccine DON'T have access to medical records as a matter of course - the practicalities of having to check each girls medical record would outweigh any benefit.

TO my knowledge there have been very few (if any) allergic reactions to this vaccine.

In the USA you can usually register a philosophical or religious objection if required.

I know unvaccinated children who attend schools in the US (and France and everywhere else people commonly say they have to be vaccinated!).

Jenai yes, it's all to do with care isn't it - nothing at all to do with bonus payments for meeting targets

I would be surprised if the Child Health Team didn't have access to children's medical records, ChippingIn.

"I would be surprised if the Child Health Team didn't have access to children's medical records, ChippingIn."

They don't. The GP's records are held by the GP. This is one of the supposed use cases for the Summary Care Record system, so that school nurses get access to allergy information directly.

"nothing at all to do with bonus payments for meeting targets"

Do you believe that nurses in schools do things against the interests of children because their primary care trust might get paid for it? Many of them are mothers themselves.

Well Chipping, I suggest you write that on your form then. After all, they are only trying to vaccinate 1000s, why on earth should they do it in such a cost effective manner? after all, they are the NHS, they have lodsa wonga to chuck around don't they

As for checking medical records, they have lists of names for vacccination and check them for any obvious contra-indications before they start vacinating. It is made easier as there are so few contra-indications for this vaccine.

Jenai "surely a vaccination programme that (in time) obviates the need for screening is a Good Thing?"

The HPV vaccine doesn't mean no need for cervical screening though. Or even a reduced need. The vaccine isn't a vaccine against cervical cancer. It's a vaccine against SOME strains of HPV.

I worry that young women will think they are safe from cervical cancer if they've had the vaccine and will think that screening is not needed.

ChippingIn - You give bonuses to get the things you want done. So once the NHS has decided that it wants to deliver vaccines, paying bonuses for doing that is kind of sensible.

Paying bonuses for vaccination is only a problem if you disagree with vaccination. In which case you can withhold consent the same as ever.

My Mum had to dish out swine flu to the elderly - a jab she refused for herself (she said she felt there were big issues with consent as well as many thought it was the regular flu jab but it was difficult if they had given apparently informed consent). There's never really enough time available to spend on consent during a mass vaccination program.

Stormy I wrote that in response to another post that I'd misunderstood. I agree, it's worrying to think that women might not bother getting screened (although iirc under-25s are no longer screened routinely).

Tokyo I am suitably surprised. Although I suppose given the sheer size of NHS systems perhaps I shouldn't be.

Informed consent is a very tricky thing in general. You need to consider the persons capability to understand and analyse the information they are given, the degree to which they are influenced by HCP's etc.

A lot of the time we don't WANT to get engaged in making decisions about our own health. We just want someone to tell us what to do - which can put HCP in a difficult position.

I have a teenage daughter, hers was the first year group to be offered the vaccine. I refused consent. I refused consent because I didn't want my daughter to be a guinea pig for a new vaccine. I fully appreciate what the vaccine is for and at no time did mine and my husbands decision have any connection with not wanting her to have sex, we would have felt exactly the same were it for breast cancer, MS , whatever. The crux of the issue for us was that it was new.

I am old enough to have lived through the Thalidomide complications, Vioxx being withdrawn for causing heart attacks, Selwyn Gummer trying to persuade his daughter to eat a beef burger to show there was no issue with British beef and the subsequent BSE crisis, and more recently Finland halting use of the swine flu vaccine last month due to possible complications of narcolepsy.

I don't believe something is safe just because I am told it is and didn't feel it was right for me to decide on something without being more sure. Just because health and government hope something is fine doesn't actually guarantee it is.

I would just like to add that my daughter has now had all three of her HPV vaccines as part of the catch up program by which time we felt happier about its record.

To answer the OP, the school nurse called me to ask why I had refused consent, we discussed the reasons and she was happy to accept my decision.My daughter was not called from class on the day and no one tried to persuade her to have it done.

Agree- very difficult to give fully informed consent. I'm not sure it's ever discussed that fully.

I had a slightly complicated birth with ds2 where my bladder was left at some risk of permanent injury. I found a whole paragraph in my notes about how before the c-section the risks of bladder injury had been discussed and I had fully understood that my bladder might be injured and had given consent. No such conversation took place- I scribbled my name at the bottom of a long check list but there was certainly no discussion around bladder injury and no discussion such as that described in the notes. Although I wouldn't argue that I had given consent.

At the time I thought it funny. Now a little bit older and wiser I find it slightly troubling (although had I been given that information I would have given consent anyway).

Oh KPT, that was lovely. You waited until other people's daughters had acted as a safety study, and then had a vaccine a few years later. Good thing everyone didn't take that position, isn't it?

oh and agree coalition about HCP's. When I questioned vaccinations for ds2 all the GP could say was 'you want me to tell you it will be ok and I can't. There's a risk if you do and a risk if you don't so you may as well get them done'.

This was shortly after ds1 had regressed. Until that happened though I didn't really think that much about consent or complications etc.

Have had some v interesting conversations with docs in the following years but still none the wiser about how to make decisions really.

tokyo- why shouldn't she? If everyone is giving informed consent then some will be happy to accept a brand new vaccine, some won't. If she has fears about a new vaccine then she would hardly be acting with informed consent if she gave it to her child.

Everyone has a free right to choose.I do what I feel best for my child . Is that not what all of us do as parents? I assume everyone else does the same, clearly the majority of people were happy for their daughters to have it done or they would have declined the offer. As I understand it the vaccine only protects against certain strains of HPV and doesn't eliminate the need for regular screening so I don't see it as vital anyway.

If everyone had taken that position it would mean that everyone was unhappy with the testing that had been done to date, and the drug companies would have had to do longer and more in-depth trials. Which wouldn't have been unreasonable, if everyone was unhappy with the testing that had been done. Nothing wrong with people waiting until they are convinced of the safety of a drug or vaccine before giving it to their child, even if the thing that convinces them is seeing the children of others get it without incident (assuming they aren't going out and forcibly injecting the children of others themselves to gather the evidence).

I shall be waiting until there's a solid decade's worth of evidence before DD gets the vaccine. But then she's 2, so that's rather how the protocol works anyway...

Interesting that I would take the opposite view to the OPs - if my daughter were one of the 12 year olds with a younger mentality and unable to work things out for herself then I would get her jabbed earlier as sadly I think shes far more likely to be pressured into sex earlier than someone with their wits about them.

[speaking as someone who didnt have the strength to tell a boy that I wasnt interested in the month I turned 13]

"This was shortly after ds1 had regressed. Until that happened though I didn't really think that much about consent or complications etc."

Which vaccination was this saintly ?

His regression was post virus mamatomany (although it did coincide with a bunch of medical treatment as well - more likely to have been the virus -herpes- that caused the most damage though given current state of knowledge). It has raised all sort of questions though for us (and continues to do so - especially as their are many immune related conditions in the family).

To be fair in recent years docs have been very open to discussion and the specialists do try to keep up with the latest research.

their = there obviously

hi all
intersting post on the have comeand i am so glad i have come across, i started a post recently but sadly only one person commented.

Ihave recently had the same debate about whther to give consent for dd 12 to have this vaccine. My dd said she didnt know and wanted me to make the decision. Me and dh spoke with her about what the vaccine was for and the reasons why we were worried about her having it.

We decided against her having it on the basis that it is a very new vaccine and we feel this generation are being used as guinea pigs as not a single professional is able to tell you what the long term side affects are as it is simply unknown.

It may be a great vaccine with no long term side effects but it may not be so great the fact is this is unknown.

I sought advice from many different medical professionals who i know on a personal level and many of them are sitting on the fence with this vaccine.

Plus i do think it is a little strange that In the UK we are offering a different drug to what is being used in other European countries, again i do not know why.

"To answer the OP, the school nurse called me to ask why I had refused consent, we discussed the reasons and she was happy to accept my decision" - Kingprawn

I find that pretty appalling tbh. I do not expect a bloody nurse to call me and ask why I had refused consent and I certainly don't think it's her place to be "happy to accept" a parent's decision. Who the fuck is she to call me to question my decision, offer unsolicited advice or "accept" my decision?

It's this type of attitude that infuriates, aside from the rights and wrongs of the vaccine itself. I'm still with ChippingIn on this one.