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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that jailing this woman is pointless

73 replies

reallytired · 13/09/2010 13:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-11283562

This case is tragic. If the medical evidence shows proves that all her children were stillbirths, rather than murdered at birth then it seems to be pointless to jail her.

I think that her keeping the baby's bodies in her wardrobe was a sign of mental illness rather than evil.

I can't help wondering why her partner did not notice the dead babies or the fact that his wife was pregnant and did not have a baby.

I think that this woman was a victim rather than a criminal.

OP posts:
MichaelaFinnigan · 13/09/2010 13:59

I totally agree with you.

BigBadMummy · 13/09/2010 14:01

Absolutely agree with you. To be honest in some ways it must be a relief for her to now know this is out in the open. Keeping this a secret must have been so hard.

I too question how friends / family / neighbours did not notice the absence of a baby.

Or the health authority not question it.

Truly sad, and jail will be no help.

highlandspringerdog · 13/09/2010 14:07

Totally agree. So many people are jailed pointlessly though - lots of mothers in prison for soliciting, shop lifting, benefit fraud - all because they are just trying to get by and provide for their children any and every way they can. Horrifying we as a society think this is a positive thing to do to people.

kreecherlivesupstairs · 13/09/2010 14:11

That is so sad. Imagine not remembering if you gave birth to the fourth child. She needs support not prison.

NordicPrincess · 13/09/2010 14:17

i am shocked they decided to jail her, it was the wrong thing to imo

PandaEis · 13/09/2010 14:21

oh how sadSad it is a tragedy rather than criminalSad she was then and is still, mentally ill and the evidence shows she didnt kill her babies so why in the world does she need to be jailed? she needs help and support and maybe a place in a mental health facility for this but not prisonSad

narkypuffin · 13/09/2010 14:23

They said she was being treated for depression now. Not in the 80s when she had the children. It also said she was drinking heavily at the time, quite possibly the reason for the stillbirths.

You don't help people who have mental illness when you assume that everyone who does something you find incomprehensible must be ill.

narkypuffin · 13/09/2010 14:24

"That is so sad. Imagine not remembering if you gave birth to the fourth child"

Alcohol related blackouts

scurryfunge · 13/09/2010 14:25

It is very sad but there does need to be a penalty for concealing a birth.

If someone has deliberately killed their child at birth but you have no proof of this, they are free to act if there is no other sanction.

Lulumaam · 13/09/2010 14:25

she's not been sentenced yet

I totally agree with the OP

also, what is putting her in prison going to achieve? society does not need protecting, she's not going to do the same thing again is she? she's mentally ill and needs help and support, not the threat of prison hanging over her too.

where was teh father of the babies in all of this?

what is the crime ? if the babies were stillborn and that is proven... what is the crime? concealing the birth?

BrightLightBrightLight · 13/09/2010 14:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lulumaam · 13/09/2010 14:27

not presuming she is mentall ill, it says in teh article

'He told the court that when Quirk was arrested last year, she was being treated at Whiston Hospital on Merseyside for depression and was on the verge of being evicted from her home.'

of course, the other option is she was a callous drink who did this for horrible reasons, rather than she because she was ill

yes, ok, concealing a birth needs a sanction, but 20 years on, is it needed and is prison the answer?

women who abandon their newborns are always told that they need to get medical help and don't need to fear arrest

scurryfunge · 13/09/2010 14:30

I agree prison is a harsh sentence....the article mentions depression at the time of her arrest. Don't really know her state of mind 20 years ago.

AvrilHeytch · 13/09/2010 14:33

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Message withdrawn

Original poster
reallytired · 13/09/2010 14:34

I think that her losing FOUR children is quite enough. She probably had zero ante natal care and gave birth alone. She could have easily died.

I think that if she is going to go to jail then so should the father of the babies.

It is sexist that mothers are deemed more responsible for children than fathers.

OP posts:
narkypuffin · 13/09/2010 14:35

Depression in 2009 does not mean she was mentally ill in the 1980s when she gave bith.

She didn't abandon a newborn. She drank during pregnancy to such an extent that she can't remember what she did, gave birth to a child that may have been stillborn (ie form the remains 20 years on there is no evidence of foulplay) and then hid the body and did it all over again.

The fact that prison is the choice as opposed to other similar UK cases suggests that there is more to this.

MollysChambers · 13/09/2010 14:36

I have no idea what the right punishment would be because I just find these types of cases completely incomprehensible.

I think it's dangerous ground to assume she was mentally ill at the time. There are perfectly sane people who have commited the most appalling crimes.

scurryfunge · 13/09/2010 14:38

Avril, sane people can and do kill, I'm afraid.

Some teens conceal births but are not mentally ill but frightened and do not know what to do.

Original poster
reallytired · 13/09/2010 14:38

Surely somewhere like Broadmoor would be more approipate than jail.

I still wonder where the rest of her family was.

Its a bit like people who see baby P's mother as 100% reponsible for the murder of baby P when certainly the lodger and the boyfriend had a part in the murder.

It takes two to make a baby.

OP posts:
narkypuffin · 13/09/2010 14:39

"No sane person would do this, of their own free will, at least not in a country where adoption and abortion are options."

Who needs psychiatric evaluation or courts? It's incomprehensible to me that people leave babies in filthy nappies, starving, whilst they go out drinking. Yet it happens everyday. Are those people in need of care and support too?

Original poster
reallytired · 13/09/2010 14:43

"Who needs psychiatric evaluation or courts? It's incomprehensible to me that people leave babies in filthy nappies, starving, whilst they go out drinking. Yet it happens everyday. Are those people in need of care and support too?"

In many cases yes.

However when terrible things happen in the news we as a society have let these children down. It is why that the death of baby P has ended the career of many people.

Did this woman have a social worker at the time? Did she have other children? We don't know the details.

However there is a big difference between a stillbirth and murder.

OP posts:
AvrilHeytch · 13/09/2010 14:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

scurryfunge · 13/09/2010 14:51

Sanity is fairly straight forward in terms of the law...you are either responsible for your actions or not.

To label someone with a mental health issue as incapable of committing a crime is dangerous.

narkypuffin · 13/09/2010 14:56

I'm sick of mental health being used as an excuse people who are just selfish.

I don't give a shit if she had a social worker. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Depression is a horrible illness not a blank cheque to act without consequences.

AvrilHeytch · 13/09/2010 14:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn