To think that jailing this woman is pointless

[reallytired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-11283562

This case is tragic. If the medical evidence shows proves that all her children were stillbirths, rather than murdered at birth then it seems to be pointless to jail her.

I think that her keeping the baby's bodies in her wardrobe was a sign of mental illness rather than evil.

I can't help wondering why her partner did not notice the dead babies or the fact that his wife was pregnant and did not have a baby.

I think that this woman was a victim rather than a criminal.

Why not if there is criminal intent?

If I had a baby as a result of an affair, say and I don't seek medical attention prior to, during or after the birth and the baby never gets registered, never has access to health, education or anything else, then surely that is wrong.

If the baby dies either by my negligence, my act and I don't acknowledge the existence of the child,how can that be right?

A stillborn baby's death is still investigated by doctors....why deny any child that right?

It has to be treated as criminal. Think of the consequences for a child whose birth is not reported- who as far as social services, healthcare providers, police etc know does not exist.

Selfish to drink so much during the pregnancies that she can't remember large periods of time and probably caused the stillbirths. Selfish to do that not once but three times.

Agree this has to be treated as criminal. Then up to the courts to decide appropriate course of action which will differ case by case.

We don't know the truth here, not many details. But even an alcoholic has sober moments.

And depression ? Easily faked to a gp..... I have done it myself when a housing officer at the hostel I was in said I would get housed quicker if 'depressed'....... Very easy as gp's can't spend enough time with a patient to diagnose it properly. Doesn't seem to have helped much if she does end up in prison tho

There are two different issues in relation to her mental health status. Her state of mind at the time of the offences is relevant to whether or not she is in fact guilty of a criminal offence, and to how seriously the offence is viewed by a sentencing judge. Her state of mind now is relevant to whether she can participate in the criminal process and to the nature of the sentence she receives - ie custody, diversion into the mental health services, punishment/treatment in the community etc.

Depression can be soul crippling torment that lasts for decades. But it does not mean that she had no control over her actions.

I don't understand why people are saying shes not mentally ill, why would a sane person do that? I agree that prison is not the right place for her, I really hope that poor woman gets some support now

Bangs head against brick wall.

Would a sane person bludgeon their wife to death or kick a stranger to death in the street or shake a baby? People do horrible things on a daily basis. It does not mean that they are mentally ill just because you can't comprehend their actions.

Bangs head against wall in tandem.

I understand what she did.

I'm carrying dead twins, I get the surgery to end it all on Thursday - but part of me, well, most of me, doesn't want to say goodbye, doesn't want to trust their tiny bodies to the NHS to be cremated and looked at under a microscope, and wants to keep them close to me forever - they're quite possibly the only babies I will ever have.

I can understand how she went through it all and wanted them to be near her - because I sure as hell ain't ready to say goodbye yet.

I don't think it's something you can understand until you've walked in those shoes. A friend who had a stillbirth (mine didn't make it long enough to be considered alive) still clings to the photos of her babies now - we're mothers - just not in the same way you might think worthy.

I just hope she gets some compassion - she deserves it. I've lost two pregnancies, three children and it's almost destroyed me - for all the press want to demonize her - this woman is stronger than I am that she's suffered worse and greater losses than I hope ever to do.

As for the alcoholism. I'm drunk - I'm drunk to numb the pain, yet I'm drunk to start the tears because I need to cry - my father's a drunk, I guess I'm heading his way... it's a way of coping. Those vicious people on various news sites (particularly those starting with a Daily and ending with a Mail) who suggested women "earn" or "deserve" stillbirths... no wonder some of us drink to be able to continue existing.

I understand why she wanted to keep her babies near her, why her grief merged everything into an incoherrent mush all too well - I'm sure many do, but because of the fact that miscarriage and stillbirth are the elephant in the corner of the room we dare not speak about, we're forced to pretend normality and not grieve... I'm not prepared to go down that road - my children may not have breathed, their hearts may not have beaten - but they were as real as any of yours. I really feel for this woman - moreso because she's in the news the day I was told all hope was dead for us.

I hope you never have to be in a position to truly empathise.

Why would a person with no mental health issues commit any number of crimes?

Burglars, drug dealers, car thieves - There must be a reson they cant make a place for themselves in society in a meaningful, law abiding way.

Binge drinking lads who go out looking for a scrap on a friday night - Why are they compelled to drink to excess, and why the casual violence?

Men who sexually assault others/ Domestic abusers - Surely any mentally healthy person would not be ruled by their egos, why such a sense of entitlement and disregard for others wishes and rights?

Murderers - Can you imagine the fucked-up brain of a person who can deliberately cause the death of another human being?

I just dont understand why the Mental Health issue is always wheeled out. What difference does it make? - Unless we're talking about some form of psychosis where the person loses touch with reality, is so mentally ill they are no longer in control of their actions - then surely most criminals could be said to be in need of support and treatment for MH issues.

I dont feel particularly strongly one way or another about this case but I'm just baffled by this argument that keeps cropping up - it make sno sense to me.

Very sorry about your circumstances but stillbirth is not the issue.....hiding a birth is.

oh empty, that's tragic. I'm so very sorry.

I'm terribly sorry for your loss Emptyshell.

To be feeling empathy for someone else says that you're a lot stronger than you might feel at the moment.

What will putting her in jail achieve?

Why should there be a penalty for concealing a birth?

Does the state own us, or our children?

She did not kill her babies. Medical evidence proves this.

OK, so not properly disposing of a body could have public health implications - but to JAIL her? Come on. Horrible.

Quite, egypt. Except that concealing a birth being a crime may be useful in cases of horrible domestic violence, I suppose, if you can't get the perpetrator on other charges. But it's the sort of offence that should be prosecuted only in very, very rare cases. The state has stopped treating women who abandon babies these days as criminals, I don't know why the CPS are so keen to convict and punish a woman who did this decades ago.

I don't think anyone is arguing that gaol is appropriate......not having a sanction for concealing a birth allows children to be born without support from the health service, etc.

Do you really believe that it is wise to have children without any acknowledgement that they exist? That environment allows abuse and neglect to exist quite nicely.

I would imagine that, ultimately, thst law is in place to protect children.

She won't go to jail,I'd put money on it.A suspended sentence at worst

So it is ok to keep your dead babies in the loft then Avril? ffs....it is about a deterrent as much as punishment. People do criminal things to children, you know.

I'm off to bed now....will catch up tomorrow.