To think that jailing this woman is pointless

[reallytired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-11283562

This case is tragic. If the medical evidence shows proves that all her children were stillbirths, rather than murdered at birth then it seems to be pointless to jail her.

I think that her keeping the baby's bodies in her wardrobe was a sign of mental illness rather than evil.

I can't help wondering why her partner did not notice the dead babies or the fact that his wife was pregnant and did not have a baby.

I think that this woman was a victim rather than a criminal.

But she didn't the children were stillborn.It is a victimless crime

The children had birth defects most probably as a result of heavy drinking.

It is a hideous case. But the actions of the mother had to be investigated. And that had to take the form of a criminal investigation. I can't see any way around that. Whilst the judge warned her she may go to jail I think it is highly unlikely that she will.

She clearly needed help, then, and now.

I hope she gets it, she must have been through hell all these years.

Scurry, I know what you mean.

But 'concern for children's welfare' is a very clever way to get us all to queue up for gross invasions of privacy without a fight. Ooh, a child MIGHT be harmed one day, so let's all sign away our own human rights, and the future human rights of the same children.

If I want to move out to the country, off grid, freebirth, grow my own, and educate my children without state help, I am deeply suspect, and there is something very wrong with that.

The assumption now seems to be that abuse is the norm, not the exception.

Also, that major monitoring makes a big difference. No, it has been proved time and time again, it sadly really doesn't.

It is insane that woman will be jailed, I am really quite cross about it.

I know why they are punishing her.

It is not about her children.

It is about her failure to obey, it is a message to all who dare to think about not submitting for lifetime monitoring in future.

You may not be human without state intervention.

My dh and I just stared at the news last night with incomprehension. This woman is not a danger to society. She should not be in prison.

I suspect that she has suffered enough. Apparently she moved house 5 times, taking her babies bodies with her. I have no idea whether her babies would have survived if she had sought medical attention, but I still think that this woman is unwell, not a criminal.

Egypt,
I can see your point about state interference.

We should be free to make our own decisions about what is right for our families.

I don't see registering births and deaths as over interference by the state though.

I don't believe that we are at the Orwellian state you describe and I don't see myself as monitored but see it as protection of those who cannot protect themselves (babies).

So if for example, a ten year old special needs child or a ninety year old granny were to die of natural causes and their primary care giver were to not report the fact and keep hold of their bodies would this also be okay? Or should this only be okay for newborns?? Personally I can't see the distinction. If either of these two events were to happen I would also expect a criminal investigation to take place. I would not expect an automatic jail sentence although there may certainly be instances when that punishment may be appropriate.

We don't yet know what the punishment will be in this case. I don't think she should go to jail. But I do think it is right that she was charged with a crime.

I don't think anyone should be gaoled necessarily....depends on what crimes they have committed and whether they are a risk to others.

Women who smoke and drink whilst pregnant should be educated and supported to refrain from those activities whilst pregnant (and as far as I know that is what does happen).

Mothers who expose their unborn children to illegal substances are monitored and there will be intervention when necessary.

But that's the point Avril, how can you ascertain the circumstances without investigating them? If a person has committed a crime, in concealing a death, then they must be charged and circumstances surrounding the death must be investigated. What other option is there? This law is in place for the protection of children. Whilst this case is very sad I don't see that it is reason to change this law. The punishment should however fit the crime.

Not being aware of legal obligations could be a get off clause for many crimes surely? Dangerous precedent to set.

In this particular case one would hope that the judge would take into account all the factors at play and sentence appropriately.

Mollys, I guess you could have an inquest for the babies rather than a criminal investigation of the mother. Inquests establish how a death happened, they don't apportion blame to individuals (although obviously they might find someone was unlawfully killed).

Are we not suspecting a very long history of this woman being abused? No mention of father of babies/husband/her siblings, really no-one around her at all. Massive chronic bereavement issue for her, mixed up with alcohol abuse and mental illness too.

Inquest and prosecution could go on at the same time? Atleast it sounds like the judge is an enquiring sort. No mention of a psychy report being aske for though.

Yes but it would have to be a criminal investigation as a crime was committed (concealing the deaths).

Seeing as there has been two big cases of girls being imprisoned by their own fathers so that they can be raped daily and bare their fathers children, it should be clear why concealing a birth should be punished. Not all people are good.

I suffer from depression as does a fair few family. Yet none of us have drank until our babies have died and then stuffed their bodies in a box as if they meant nothing.

To say she deserves special treatment for being mentally ill is a disservice to all those women out there with depression and a series of miscarriages who haven't done this. If they could behave like human beings in the face of such tragedy, why should she get a free pass?

Also what about those babies siblings? Did they not have a right to know?

Completely agree Litha. Ultimately we must all take responsibility for our own actions. Alcoholism and drug abuse are not an excuse. A severe mental illness may well be but you can't assume that this is the case just because the crime seems incomprehensible.

I do find the level of judgement on this thread really quite harsh. And I doubt v. much this woman has had a 'free pass' with such a sense of loss and bereavement she must have carried for years. Moving the bodies from house to house. Truly awful.

A crime has been comitted and should be treated as such.

yes.....rather my point.

Alcohlism and drug abuse are often seen in the mentally ill because the group is more vunerable to self medicate through drink or drugs.
Its a way to hide their illness,imo.

Tragic circumstances, poor babies.Does anyone know why the babies were still born ? Could it be severe fetal alcohol syndrome? or was it some awful genetic condition?

The only crime i see is conceling of a dead body.

Its just so so sad .
I hope the woman gets the help she needs .