to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

SpeedyGozalez - I don't agree. I think that might be true of Secularism as a movement, and a philosophy. But I don't think many people are asking for a Secular education in that strict sense. I think they are asking for a 'small-s secularism' that does not present one faith or absence of faith as true and does not discriminate on a religous basis.

So what we want then, is not strictly secular schools but neutral ones.

I agree with your other 2 points - though I would be in favour of abandoning faith schools altogether, changing the admissions policy removes a lot of the objections.

But I think that if faith schools remove the admissions policies, then parents choosing to send their child to that school have to at least respect the religion of the school.

It cuts both ways.

I am not a Catholic, but if I sent my child to a Catholic school, I would not seek to undermine that.

BaggedandTagged - It depends what you mean by 'respect' or 'undermine' doesn't it? Lots of children already go to schools of a different faith.

If I were to end up sending my child to a faith school, I would have to tell her that it's all a load of nonsense, but that she should be polite and go along with peoples customs as long as she was happy with them.

"If I were to end up sending my child to a faith school, I would have to tell her that it's all a load of nonsense, "

Surely this is 'indoctrination' just as much as a parent of religious faith teaching their child about their beliefs?

I read a certain newspaper and now my kids do. I think I am indoctrinating them in a certain political viewpoint too.

Non-religious doesn't mean neutral, as SG mentioned.

DandyDan - Of course. Which is why we should not have faith schools, but instead have neutral schools (thanks to SG for suggesting this better term).

The coalition- but that's kind of what I mean. If a faith school has a large percentage of parents who dont support the school's ethos, then the school cannot carry out what it wants to do, so is unlikely to willingly submit to changes in admissions procedures

I suppose I would personally phrase it as

"Nobody knows for sure if God exists. My personal belief is X but Catholics believe Y and it's important to respect other people's religious beliefs."

CE schools do not indoctrinate. They have a Christian context and ethos for their community and values. They do not insist on belief from the children attending. They teach re other faiths in lessons covering RE.

I was meaning that there is no neutrality in saying you don't want your child being taught about religion. Saying "it's a load of fairy stories" is a brand of indoctrination.

BaggedandTagged - that's more or less what I said isn't it? I'd phrase it:-

"My personal belief is X but Catholics believe Y and it's important to respect other people"

I am sorry but all holy books are a "load of fairy stories" and have as much connection to reality as the Chronicles of Narnia.

DandyDan - "A Christian context and ethos for their community and values." is a form of indoctrication as well.

No faith school demands faith - you can't prove faith. They demand religous observance. You CANNOT go to the primary school at the end of my road unless you go to church.

UnePrune - maybe my perception is skewed by the fact that I am in Glasgow!

Where I am, it is ds' (non denom) school which is bursting at the seams and the (closer) catholic school that is half empty and even then, is 80% Muslim/Sikh/Hindu

"CE schools do not indoctrinate."

um... sole purpose, really.

DandyDan:

"As I mentioned before, every CE school I have come across (and that's quite a few) has had an intake that is wholly broad and from the catchment."

Clearly your inclusive C of E schools are nothing like the school described by the OP, or the faith schools local to me.

Personally I have nothing against fully inclusive faith schools that do not discriminate against children by their parents' religion. Unfortunately though a lot of them do, and it is these which are the subject of the OP.

That is a question of location then, for at least some of the posters here. If the faith school is in an area where it's not going to be over-subscribed by eager parents, then it will have a mixed intake of pupils, including some who practise their faith. It's the over-subscribed schools that are the issue - how do they address the great number of applications? If they have a faith aspect to their foundation (not to their "running the school" because most faith schools do not do this system of governance), it is reasonable that in looking at their applications, they take into account whether someone is a practising participant of that faith already.

My local village school is a bleedin' faith school. It's a monopoly provider (unless I want to travel 7 miles down the road out of my way). I find that mildy irritating

speedygonzalez

Unless you are an 'easy-going agnostic' you cannot take a neutral position on religion

think just sums me up nicely , Ds2 is taking gcse Re he is not relgious but enjoys the ethical and moral discussions that are involved and how it tys into ?history and georgraphy that is studying

Dd is at C of E school but thats becuase I felt it was important that she attends school in her community and think that outweighs anything. .

Be intretsed to see how many of the dc from outside the village parents are offically church goers .

84 dc in school age 3-11 , and 5 dc local of primary school age and I had to fight for a place as was turned down at first for being full and not being church goer was honest with them that I will bring my dc up to be open and broadminded about relgion and encourage them to ask questions

But also made clear that im happy for her to attend church for events etc .

We got a place on appeal

It's not a matter of location, dandydan, it's a matter of religious discrimination within a state service provider, and it can have a very damaging effect on other schools in the community.

It is very much a matter of location to me! A faith school is my only local primary school

It's not religious discrimination unless they say they absolutely won't take your child unless you are a churchgoer. Where schools are saying this, they ought to be held to account. In fact there was a Jewish school which was held to account for refusing a place to a non-practising Jewish boy (of a non-practising family, I think), who was able to prove his matrilineal descent and therefore get a place. But if they have a list of admission critieria which includes churchgoing as one of the prime tickboxes, that just means they have a scale of criteria, not that they are stopping those in the next tickbox from being at the school. If the no. of places means that the school places get taken by those fitting the first criterion, and there are no other places left, that's unfortunate but it's not discrimination. If people didn't pretend to be churchgoers, that would help matters.

Dandydan, in densely populated areas the effect is identical whether the discrimination takes place through a priority list or an outright ban.

The effect may be identical, yes, but it means it is not discrimination.

Legally no, morally yes.

I believe a part of bringing a child up is to provide them with education and opportunities,.Parents can focus alot of time effort and money on physical, and mental,adacemic needs however are we considering their spiritual needs.

Some people like it that faith schools cover this on their behalf allowing their children to make a choice for themselves whether they are churchgoers or not.
Non faith schools cover RE which does not so much cover faith but religion without covering the spiritual experience side of things.
Overall i do believe that faith schools have a good reputation and have done and are doing a good thing and i would like to see more schools offering faith opportunities to this generation of children for them to be able to decide for themselves if they want to have a faith.

zephirne

i dont live in a densley poulated area far from it ,most of the school dc come from outside the area drawn by the ofstead reports

and the Cof E school is the only one here , took me a hr or so at appeal for them to allow dd a place even though were nearer than most of the otherkids infact nearer than 81 of them out of 83 .

And faith did come up at appeal the fact that I have none , had to argue on social and moral ground sthat refusing dd a place is going to mean hardship for us as a family

Have to be home as ds3 goes in taxi to ss and that dd needs chance to be able to attennd school clubs discos etc .i had to take their their christain princples and use them against them almost

What I don't understand is why if so many people believe as the OP and myself seem to, why does nothing change, and in fact the faith schools seem to be more and more of an issue?

What is it all about?