to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

The English as a second language thing is slightly misleading IMO. Since it doesnt always mean children dont speak English rather they speak 2 (or more)languages. I went to school speaking fluent English and my home language but would have been included in this statistic.

The interesting thing about the OFsted report would be to see what they achieve with what is presumably a slightly deprived intake.

DS! started school yesterday and the school I picked has both the things mentioned int he OP but what they achieve with this intake is fantastic. No they are not the highest academic achieveing school in the area but they get astounding movement which other schools with the same issues dont, so please dont write it off.

FWIW, lotteries for school entry are a terrible idea. That would be a backward step for the environment and road congestion. The reality is that parents that care about their childrens education will find ways around any attempts at social engineering that they see as detrimental to them personally.

I compared the UK (more specifically, England) to Iran because they are two non-secular states. The US has a culture and a legally system which are built on the fundamental premesis of the separation of church and state - as it happens as a direct result of their treatment under the English Crown's strict associateion with the church. So, you can't really compare the two.

Now, the US has much to admire so I completely understand you wanting to be more like them. But, if it is their separation of church and state which you seek, then you will need to start by doing just that: separating church from state. Until then, of course the state faith is supported by the state.

JustAsWelliLikeLego - I a, surprise you would be well down the list of "preferred" candidiates: as I understood it, ds would have had a "right" to go to our local catholic school (which is actually closer). You just needed to register him there rather than at the non-denom school when they were doing registrations back in January/Febraury. That's the subtle difference between the English and Scottish systems.

And also, I thought most of the Catholic schools were crying out for numbers - that is why the church is crying blue murder at proposals to shut/merge them - or, heaven forbid, share a campus with a non-denom school

As it happens, I agree with you: I think school should be secular but as the law stands that is not possible :(

I also agree with you that having the prallel system does not help the sectarian problems of the west coast of Scotland.

I too couldn't have brought myself to send ds to a catholic school, even if it was closest and that was where all his friends were going. It would have been the same if it were the jewish school that was the closest: it would have been hypocritical.

I am also horrified by what my dh tells me about some of the prejudice that still exists in the west of Scotland: at some interviews, they will ask you what primary school you went to, if they haven't been able to work out if you are catholic from the secondary school

23Ballons - Why would a faith choose too close down a school, thereby damaging the community they are there to support, just because they were no longer allowed to promote their faith through it?

If they did take their ball and go home, I can think of many ways around the land/buildings issue, from confiscation, through compulsory purchase to leasing, taking in a bit of quid-pro-quo for planning permission for new places of worship etc.

If all we get in return allowing faith schools to discriminate on religious grounds, and promote their religion, is a small amount of money and the use of some facilities, we are getting shafted.

Strix - yes, we need to start by disestablishing the Church.

Oh get a grip.

Sorry, Coalition, I didn't realise I wasn't welcome on the thread if I didn't read your links.
I hope everyone takes note

im not c of E but dd finally has aplace in our local school which is but dont think may of the dc are our next nearest school with places was 5 miles though they did not ask r on form did mention that there be pray time and a christian outlook , but im happy with that as will balance it with views of other faiths at home and when dd is older she can make her own mind up

We moved in March took me to September to get her a place , 25 houses in village 6 dc of primary age and yet it was full.When do school pick up drop up carpark is so full that over summer they expanded it

Strix - the difference between Iran and the UK is that Iran is a theocracy with a thin veneer of democracy applied, whereas the UK is a Liberal Democracy stuck with a religious stub.

mrsruffallo - You're quite welcome, but your presence is a bit pointless if you don't engage with the argument. If you want to sit at the back quietly, that's no skin off my nose, but I would have thought you would have something better to do.

knackeredofleeds - Who is that aimed at? If it's me what do you want me to grip?

A liberal democracy can allow faith schools to have their place then, in a broad mix of schools, instead of being aggressively secularist.

I am engaging with the argument, just not necessarily with your links
You are very funny

DandyDan - Why should it though? What does it gain? Seeing as it makes the allocation of school places harder by reserving some for particular groups, and inevitably involves supporting faiths that may not support liberal democracy, then one would hope that the state would get a good deal in return for providing this service to a minority.

Our local Catholic primary in Edinburgh is pretty oversubscribed, though, so there's a scrabble for places for non-Catholics (of which they have a set number, is that right?). I know someone who was worried that a sibling wouldn't get in because they aren't Catholic.

mrsruffallo - I am glad to be of amusement.
Shall I copy and paste the content of the links here instead? Would that work for you?

The state does get what it requires out of faith schools as out of any educational establishment: the same as any state school - a student educated to the standards the govt sets in a set curriculum, and in an establishment subject to the same rigorous ofsted'ing as anywhere else. CE school certainly have to pass a very stringent CE 'ofsted' type inspection as well as the regular LEA/govt inspection.

If anything, it's these new Free Schools/Academies that Gove is inflicting on the system that are going to totally skew education and create more of an upper tier/lower tier system.

What should be scrapped is grammar schools.

strix - indeed, I beleive we should seperate church from state, and more like US and less like Iran.

in some ways we are even worse than Iran because we have become so muddled : as well as state schools turned over to the hands of the state religion, we also have state school turned over into the hands of to jewish, catholic and muslim organisations.

madness!

and so dangerous. what happens when Jains, Sikhs, Scientologists, Buddhists, Moonies, 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Jedi Knights all demand that the state fund school for them? the state is going to be increasing dragged into the foolishness of deciding which religions are 'real' and which are 'made up'.

there shoudl be no religious state schools.

Interesting point Peetle but I wonder if you would have raised this on behalf of the parents on the council estate if the faith school was on the council estate 300 yards away from you and the one 250 yards away with all the nice middle class children was an outstanding local authority school and your child was eligible on the basis of distance alone!? Is this about religion, class or the fact that you can't have something that you want for your child?

DandyDan - But if that's all we get, seeing as we are paying for it anyway, what is the added value from faith groups?

I can't find (in two minutes on google) a summary of the admissions policies for Acadamies and Free schools, but I think (from what I remember) they are more inclusive than those of Faith schools.

onceamai I'm afraid it is very unlikely to happen. While this school operates on its own admission criteria, it will always have a higher proportion of "nice middle class children" and a much lower proportion of children from chaotic or disconnected families, and this will always have a knock on effect on its neighbouring community school. It's a situation repeated over and over again across London (and most likely other cities).

Nearly fell off my chair after reading "jedi knights". Well said.

You know what I find interesting about this discussion? It's the assumption that secular = neutral. It is not. Unless you are an 'easy-going agnostic' you cannot take a neutral position on religion, IME. You either choose a religion or you reject religion. Rejection is not the same as neutrality.

So secular schools, contrary to popular belief, are not the neutral antidote to faith schools.

It's been interesting to read the range of opinions on this thread but I still maintain that the most practical solution is for faith schools to change their admissions policies to only accepting children from the local area, regardless of the parents' stance on religion. And that failing schools need whatever it takes to raise their standard of education.

Well said, SG.

""While this school operates on its own admission criteria, it will always have a higher proportion of "nice middle class children" and a much lower proportion of children from chaotic or disconnected families, and this will always have a knock on effect on its neighbouring community school.""

As I mentioned before, every CE school I have come across (and that's quite a few) has had an intake that is wholly broad and from the catchment. And most particularly, our local CE was rejected by the "nice middle class parents" because it was located in a council estate, and it had an intake of council house children which they assumed meant a certain level of academic standard and behaviour, I guess. They also rejected it because it was larger than the very small state school not too far away "where there are fewer in a class". There was no snobbishness about the CE element but about the quality of provision for their children.