to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

roundthebend, I raised the possibility somewhere up the thread that Christian principles ought to mean that compassion and a desire to serve the local community trump the needs of the faithful. I'm glad that you were able to appeal to their christian values to get a place for your dd.

roundthebend - no I'm sure it is an issue in rural areas too, but I don't have direct experience of these whereas the effects of the system here are very clear. Well done for getting a place.

the ministry of education is (quite rightly) not allowed to hire staff on the basis of their religion.

I think it's shocking that state schools are allowed to do exactly that when they hire teachers. Or allocate school places.

discrimination by religion is illegal in almost every context, except for - bizarrely - in schools!! one place we really should be trying to practice our values.

as a society we don't think there is any place for racial and religiouse discrimination. we need to get it out of our governemtn schools.

And the church of course prides itself on being "the only organisation that exists for the benefit of its non-members"

ha ha ha ha ha

Schools - Catholic, CE etc - are also not allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religious faith, when hiring teachers.

As mentioned before, just because they have to prioritise allocation, doesn't mean they discriminate.

Would it be called discrimination if a school in a very well-to-do housing estate/area allocated on the grounds of 'distance from the school'? That would be discrimination on grounds of wealth, for those parents who couldn't afford houses in the locality.

I'm in two minds on this issue...

I am a Christian and would love for my children to go to a local Christian school... but in our area there isn't one! There is in fact a choice of only one school because the only other local school is on a new-build estate and is so small it can barely accommodate the volume of children living on the estate!

I understand that for many there is little option to attend anything other than a faith school because the only other local schools are simply struggling!! Which is frustrating, when as a parent you so desperately want your child to go to a good school. But does also reflect perhaps government neglegence that the only other schools are falling behind.

I don't feel children should be admitted based on hypocrisy, of parents attending and donating simply to get a place. However, I would expect children who's parents have a genuine faith and wish their children to receive a faith school upbringing to be offered a place first! I did apply to a localish faith school which is technically not our catchment area but they could not offer my children a place even with my personal faith background, simply because they did not have the capacity to accommodate us.

But I also don't see why when these schools, or at least the few I know about, follow the national curriculum why they should not get government funding just because they promote faith??!! I think they should continue to be funded but it might be nice to see people approaching them without the hypocrisy but with a hope that they might get a place!

I am a practicing R Catholic and my children go to Catholic schools. These are part funded by the Catholic church and on this basis are 'faith schools'.

However all religions are taught, my children have done extensive projects on Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism and other religions. There are plenty of non Catholic children in the school and the attitude towards them is one of tolerance.

All families have to agree when sending their children that they will abide by the ethos of the school which means yes everyone goes to mass once a term. But it also means we financially support a school in Tanzania year round. The children do ongoing fundraising for a range of needs which the children can suggest themselves. For example our local cancer support centre and hospices benefit have been recipients.

Equality, charity and tolerance are the values at the heart of the school. How many state schools can say that.

Anyone who has a teenage child will know that there is no such thing as 'blind faith'. Children question and will always decide for themselves in the end.

Also if faith schools are such a bad idea. Why do they consistently outperform state schools. Could it be something to do with their religious values?

test

boiledegg

Think was that and they also knew I was not going to go away and knew their was potential for a rather messy fight and that it looked bad on them .

I had wrote to the archbishop for the area after got turned down at the first hurdle and was not above using a few quotes from the bible to

I sent all of mine to Catholic elementary school in the US, where faith schools do not receive one penny from the state for what I consider to be very sound reasons in a multicultural society. All school expenses were met by a combination of the parish contribution, tuition fees, and a huge amount of dedicated and almost professional volunteer fundraising (school auction, just one event of many held during the year bringing in $80,000 to 100,000 per year, not even in a particularly affluent community).

The good results had nothing to do with religious values imo, but a lot to do with the commitment level of parents who were prepared to sacrifice a chunk of their monthly income in school fees and then support the fundraising as best they could on top of that. After all, why would you go to all the trouble and expense and then let your child ignore the homework or put up with disruptive behaviour in class, either of your child's or anyone else's child?

Catholic and Lutheran schools in the US (which account for the majority of faith schools) are criticised for creaming off the dedicated and interested parents and leaving the public schools with not much to work with. There is a point there, but there are few pioneers willing to put their children on the front lines of educational change, especially in big cities where the public schools tend to underperform. To a certain extent I feel I was a part of the problem by choosing a school that was best for my children instead of rolling up my sleeves and trying to improve another school as Catholic neighbours of mine did.

DandyDan - It is discrimination because it means that state funded facilities are being reserved for one part of the community.

Now this is not necessarily bad in and of itself - single sex sessions at sports centers provide a valuable service for certain faith groups for instance - it allows them to access facilities that they would not be able to use otherwise. This has positive health benefits for those groups which ultimately benefits society as a whole, not least through reduced health costs. The cost to society is just a few hours when another gender cannot access the facilities. It's pretty clear there is a net benefit.

So the question is are the advantages to one group greater that the disadvantages to society as a whole?

So what are the advantages of faith schools?

1. They allow people of faith to have their children educated in an environment that supports that faith.
2. They promote the idea that faith is an inherently positive thing and that faith groups should have special treatment.
3. Their popularity boosts church attendance.
4. They contribute about 1% of the education budget.
5. They provide the land and facilities in some cases.

Are there any others?

What are the disadvantages?

1. They allows people of faith to have their children educated in an environment that supports that faith.
2. They promote the idea that faith is an inherently positive thing and that faith groups should have special treatment.
3. Their popularity boosts church attendance.
4. They can be uncomfortable for children and parents of other/no faith who attend whether or not this is by choice.
5. The perceived academic advantage of faith schools leads to a rush of more able pupils to them, disadvantaging other schools, children whose parents are not prepared to pretend to a faith they don't have and the children of parents of faith who are kept out of their preferred school by dissemblers.
6. They reduce the mixing of people of different faiths.
7. All religions have to be treated equally. This could result in faith schools whose religious values are not congruent with those of civil society but which the state is paying for.
8. They exclude teachers of other faiths.
9. They promote the idea that religious discrimination is sensible and reasonable.

Any more anyone?

What are the disadvantages of religiously neutral schools (I'm aware these don't strictly speaking exist at the moment) for the children of people of faith?

1. They have to receive education in their specific faith outside of school.

Any others?

Of course how you weight the different advantages/disadvantages makes a huge difference. But if we take out the ones that are both advantages and disadvantages depending on your point of view, the case for them, to me at least, doesn't look very strong.

Marieljf - "Equality, charity and tolerance are the values at the heart of the school. How many state schools can say that."

All of them I hope. It certainly should be. Faith doesn't have a monopoly on any of those qualities.

"Also if faith schools are such a bad idea. Why do they consistently outperform state schools. Could it be something to do with their religious values?"

No it's not - it's to do with their intake. If you compare similar children they don't do significantly better at faith or non-faith schools.

I second all that coalition has said.

'and that faith groups should have special treatment.'
I disagree that this is necessarily a result of having faith based schools due to my observations of faith based schools in the US paying their own way and thriving.

'They can be uncomfortable for children and parents of other/no faith who attend whether or not this is by choice.'
Hence the need for completely secular tax funded education with faith schools funded by the communities they are intended to serve. It works in the US.

'The perceived academic advantage...'
This is too often real, not perceived.

'They promote the idea that religious discrimination is sensible and reasonable.'
Disagree again. This has not been my experience or observation of faith schools.

"
"Also if faith schools are such a bad idea. Why do they consistently outperform state schools. Could it be something to do with their religious values?"

I refer the Honourable Member to my 'teaching the parents to juggle' analogy below.

Here's the thing. People of faith are taxpayers too. Why should they also not be accomodated in our society?

mathanxiety -

(ponders way out of quote multiplication disaster...)

I'll number your points.

1. Are you saying that giving faith groups special treatment doesn't promote the idea that faith groups promote special treatment?

1. I would be fine with that.

1. It's not due to their being faith schools though, it's to do with their intake. Of course, some faith schools are just plain good. Just not more than non-faith schools.

1. They DO discriminate in both admissions and recruitment. This in itself promotes the idea that discriminating on the grounds or religion is a sensible thing to do.

Why should taxes go towards promulgating and supporting faith, though? There is church and sunday school for that. It's personal, not state, business.

Henny1995 - They are. What are they unable to get in a religiously neutral school?

Are these things worth the negatives that come with faith schools?

"Here's the thing. People of faith are taxpayers too. Why should they also not be accomodated in our society?"

I'm a tax payer and I can't send my child to a secular school without going private. Why should people of faith be accomodated when people without faith aren't?

I hate the idea of faith schools being funded by the tax payer. I had to sell my house and uproot the kids just to get DS into a decent secondary school which I really begrudged doing considering there was a catholic school right across the bloody road that we were not eligible to attend.
I would never get my kids baptised to get into the school either so we had no choice but to move, despite my taxes paying into that school. Why should one set of people get preferential treatment? Maybe we should open state funded Athiest only schools where people of faith were not allowed to attend.

Technically we are a Christian country. Our Head of State is the Head of the Church of England. Therefore if there is a faith at the top of the government process why should this not apply to schools also.

What proportion of this country has a religion and what proportion of these people tax. Why therefore should some of their tax not be directed to faith schools.

This is only an issue now because faith schools do so well in most areas. In other areas faith schools do not do so well and I bet there are parents who are glad some people choose faith schools against the local school to free up more spaces.

dandydan - "Schools - Catholic, CE etc - are also not allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religious faith, when hiring teachers"

This is incorrect.

The religious discrimination bills specifically exempt faith schools from the normal legal requirements, eg Equality Act 2010. And I quote:

"982. Paragraph 4 provides that it is not unlawful discrimination for schools which
have a religious character or ethos (often referred to as faith schools) to do certain
things which are permitted by the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. This
includes:
...blah blah...
and allowing a voluntary aided school or an independent school to take account of
religious considerations in employment matters."

The eduction bill would also go up if faith schools were stopped. Not something the Coalition would want at the moment as the Churches would stop their funding.

Since you asked, fsmail, 100% of people in this country pay tax (VAT etc).

10% go to a church weekly.

The state provides 100% of the running costs of faith schools.

HTH.