to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

TCNY - why do you that children at faith schools are better than other children?

Fiordgirl - see my posts of 12:17 and 12:32.

because the pupils at faith schools deserve funding as much as your child does surely? Or should you only be allowed to follow your beliefs if you are able to afford a private education? When you say the state surely you mean the taxpayers. Parents of children in faith schools are funding the schools through their taxes just as they are funding the non-faith other selective schools. Why are the pupils in faith schools any better than the pupils in other schools?

Don't really understand what you mean by what does the state get out of it? Surely they get an educated individual who will then become employed (hopefully) and contribute to society through their taxes or are faith school pupils some sort of alien being?

Certainly where I live, and I'm guessing in most densely populated areas, there is a very clear socio-economic divide between the intake of faith and community schools. Sadly it's fairly obvious just from seeing who is walking or driving in which direction at drop-off and pick-up time, but verifiable by looking at the stats for free school meals for example.

mrsruffalo - If you haven't got time to look at the evidence, why should I take the trouble to explain it to you? I know, it's because I'm nicer than you.

This is a very telling remark. And quite funny too.

I think it would ony be fair then, to rearrange the guidelines in all schools. I say

1. Make all school admissions borough wide and have a lottery system. It will stop the trend of parents buying houses near good schools and outpricing the local community

1. Ban private schools altogether

1. It would only be fair to then ban all faith schools too

A much fairer society all in all

Well perhaps it would be fairer MrsR, if enormously impractical and disruptive.

On the other hand, addressing this particular anomaly in which faith schools are allowed to sidestep the normal admissions criteria really couldn't be more straightforward.

So have you looked at the links or not? Or read me summarising of them? There's not much point you being here if you don't listen to what's being said.

23Balloons - If faith groups weren't involved we would need to find an extra 1% (VERY rough figure) to cover the shortfall in cost.

Essentially, we are already paying out of state funds for "an educated individual who will then become employed (hopefully) and contribute to society through their taxes".

In return for this small contribution we allow faith groups a platform at the heart of the education system. I don't think we are getting a very good deal.

It's true that parents of faith and non-faith are funding faith and non-faith schools - but I still don't see a case for including faith at all. Parents who want education in a faith for their children can get it from their faith. They can still get education in everything else from the state without involving faith groups in the process.

For why the intake is better see see my posts of 12:17 and 12:32.

MrsRuffallo - I would agree with all those points. I'm not that bothered about banning private schools to be honest though. The other two are good ideas.

I don't think you could ban private schools even if you wanted to unless you want to say that "all children must attend a school run and funded entirely by the state" which would be the death knell of home education as well.

The Coalition maybe the 1% figure covers the shortfall in contribution I don't know although I am sure it is still a very large figure. What about the land the state schools are built on & often the buildings themselves that are owned by the church not the council? Should the churches hand them over for free? Would the government have to pay for them or would they have to find alternative sited an build new schools for all of the faith pupils to go to?

It would prove pretty difficult in some parts of London. As I mentioned in a previous thread a Catholic High school not too far from me (too far to get into btw) is on land where a flat sells for around £1m & houses £3-4m. The land would cost so much the council simply couldn't buy it and I doubt the church is going to hand it over. It takes many under privileged pupils so their parents certainly couldn't pay to keep them there. Where would these 1400 children then go when the funding is stopped? There aren't any free spaces in other secondaries in the borough so what would happen to them?

There is a link on that link to the actual survey.

The original link and I think also mention on the survey includes details of (I think) the 30% (average) of pupils in CE schools who are on free-school-dinners. That's a broader, less socially exclusive detail that's being refuted here.

"because the pupils at faith schools deserve funding as much as your child does surely? Or should you only be allowed to follow your beliefs if you are able to afford a private education?"

Nobody is saying that people should be stopped from following their beliefs. But the question is do those beliefs need a dedicated school to serve them? Or could the requirements of those beliefs be adequately served outside of school time?

After all, it's not like the average Catholic, Muslim or Jehovah's Witness office worker can only work in particular offices that match their faiths, is it?

How can you seriously suggest that state funds have no place in the state faith?

What this thread is arguing is separation of church and state. There is no such thing in the UK -- certainly not in England. I always thought the title "Church of England" gave the game away. But, I guess decyphing thee codes is more difficult for some.

If you want to ban state funds from my children's (CofE) school than I want to ban funds from your state school.

Besides you are wasting your time because church schools are not exactly suffering from lack of demand.

Snorbs, religeon is not something we do once or week. It is part of our everyday lives, all day long. I want my children exposed to that in their formal education and also in extracurricular activities.

Work, on the other hand, is something many people do from 9 to 5.

Education and work are not really comparable. And good thing because I would hate to find out place of business had me in their catchment and I could therefore not work anywhere else.

Strix: "Besides you are wasting your time because church schools are not exactly suffering from lack of demand."

This is why I raised the subject. The demand for faith schools is driven by their perceived higher standards, not by a rise in religious belief. This turns parents into hypocrites and artificially fills the churches, skewing the sytem. Not forgetting the carbon footprint of people driving to distant schools instead of attending their closer alternatives.

I don't mind if you want your childen to have a faith-based education, providing the national curriculum is adhered to, but I'd rather all schools had higher standards and faith schools only had to accommodate those with a genuine belief. If that happened I think we'd need fewer of them.

Strix, what you're saying doesn't add up. First you say that religion isn't a once or twice a week thing. But then you say you're perfectly happy not to have specific religious inclusion in your 9-5pm job. But that you don't want your children to not have religious inclusion in their 9-3:30pm school time.

Huh? If you can survive in your 9-5 job without religious sermons and teachings and, indeed, manage to fit church in around your job, why can't your children?

of course the government should not discriminate against children on the basis of their parents' religion.

govt schools should be secular

if the church wants to run schools, they should be independent schools.

Snorbs - It is different because the purpose of school is to educate my children, including but not limited to religeon. And, the purpose of work is not to educate me. It is a prerequisite for the job that I have already been suitably educated. So the function of education cannot reasonably be compared to that of work.

Snorbs - the church does not run our school. They contribute to the running. But they certainly don't have sole control. My children go to this particular school specifically because I wanted a school that was academically sound which would provide one community which unites the school with an associated church community.

We do not have a secular state in England. Why would you expect a secular state run school system? Why don't you go to Iran and tell them to remove Islam from their schools and see how well received that instruction is?

Fuzzface - I would say to you, 'there are lies, damn lies and statistics' it is all in the questioning. However what the churches say is very interesting:

CofE: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/22/church-of-england-attendance-falls

To fall by 90%: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/21/anglicanism-religion

Catholic attendances: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573452/Britain-has-become-a-Catholic-country.html

It seems the churches have less faith than you!

strix the idea that our governement should run religious schools because.... the iranian does is not compelling to me.

i would prefer we took our lead from the US, or France where government schools are secular.

prettybird. Yes I could apply to the school, although having no faith I would be way down its list of preferred applicants although I live right beside it. However, I believe education should be secular and as such cannot send my child to a faith-based school. It would be hypocritical on my part.
I am happy that all religions are explored in education, they are part of culture but I think it is plain wrong to separate children at primary school age according to (mostly non-practiced by them) religion and it promotes far reaching social problems, especially in west Scotland.
Or do you think all schools here are so mixed now it does not matter? Interested to hear your experience.

Personally I would like to see faith schools abolished altogether. I think faith is for the home and parents to take their child to Church/Mosque/Synagogue/Temple etc and esnure they learn if this is what they want.

All schools should teach a broad curriculum that teaches all faith in equal measure and celebrates our differences.

I havent read the whole thread, but will do.