to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

Why doesn't that surprise me, lifeinlimbo? Sadly these things often go together. I'm guessing gays were also kept within the wall.

This thread seems to include 2 objections to faith state schools:

1. That they shouldn't be able to exclude children of other faiths (or no faith).

1. That they shouldn't exist at all.

The first has some potential to be addressed. The second, would be so expensive, it's practically impossible to achieve.

Considering the relatively small amount the churches give to their faith schools it wouldn't actually be that expensive. And for those schools who profess to follow the creed of Charity, one wonders why they'd stop financing the schools even if they did become secular. Or will they decide that it's their football and they're taking it home with them?

I think this is mainly about:

1. That they should not be state funded.

I don't agree with 1 or 2.

Speedy - didnt discuss gay people but Im quite sure that would also be beyond the wall of allowed thinking (& probably would have been a rather unpleasant discussion).

Speedy - That's 10% of the CAPITAL costs, not the running costs. I don't think many schools are going to be buying new stuff for the next few years.

Still, say capital costs make up 30% of the yearly costs - that's then 10% of 30% of 30%.

So that would be 1%. I don't think you would notice that against a backdrop of all the other costs.

Snorbs - 'xactly.

Faith school buildings and land are often owned by the church and the church is often integral to the management of these schools.

The legal, financial and administrive implications of closing church schools would be enormous - not to mention disruptive to a generation of children.

I can't see any government taking this on.

"GeviveHawkings, as the statistics above indicate a large percentage of the tax giving public indicate that they hold a particular faith position and therefore in one sense they are already funding the faith schools. To exclude faith schools from public funding when a large percentage of the public holds that faith might end up diminishing support for state funded education."

Fuzzface It is by no means axiomatic that people who on paper "hold a particular faith" support faith schools.

I am an atheist yet "on paper" am C of E apparently as my parents had me christened when I was 3 months hold and had no say in the matter whatsoever. So go figure...

I have no dount whatsoever that if there were to be a refurendum tomorrow, the vast majority of the general public would be entirely ambivelent about faith schools. If asked a straight question like would you prefer your child to attend a faith school or a normal run of the mill county primary/secondary school the overwhenlming majority would vote in support of the latter because most people just aren't devout enough to care - even if they do claim to be C of E or whatever on paper.

Your argument is a very weak one.

I posted this on the other faith school thread but think it helps to put this in it's historical context.

In the post war period, when our universal state education system really started, it was decided to utilize many existing schools rather than find the money to build all state schools from scratch.

The existing schools included many church schools, and some 'private' schools which became state schools (now voluntary aided state schools).

The church or founder organization often owned the land and buildings. In exchange for taking 'state pupils' they kept some autonomy.

My DDs go to a wonderful state school (and have been attending church since they were 3 weeks old). I am happy for them to make up their mind about religion when they are older but feel that they should have some knowledge of what they are making their minds up about.

Justaswellilikelego: if you are in the west coast of Scotland, you could have chosen to let your ds go to the catholic school, especially since it is closer to you. Presumably you are in its catchment? ... and you could have withdrawn your ds from the catholic teaching.

Or are you worried about prejuduce?

We are C of E but I do think it's a bit odd in this day and age that state schools aren't secular.

Our local C of E school has been taken over by some rabid evangelists who went around telling the children how full of sin they all were whilst neglecting to teach them to read and write. You have to wonder at the wisdom of this, really. None of the children learned the Lord's Prayer either. Very odd.

Mine go to what I would call 'neutral' schools now, and we find the staff and parents much more spiritual and inclusive. I like that.

"I have no dount whatsoever that if there were to be a refurendum tomorrow, the vast majority of the general public would be entirely ambivelent about faith schools. If asked a straight question like would you prefer your child to attend a faith school or a normal run of the mill county primary/secondary school the overwhenlming majority would vote in support of the latter because most people just aren't devout enough to care - even if they do claim to be C of E or whatever on paper. "

There was a survey in 2008 - the majority were in favour of faith schools existing and also thought there were benefits associated with faith schools. You can access it and read a huge amount about C of E educational establishments here -
www.cofe.anglican.org/info/education/faqcofeschools/

Where will it all stop I wonder?

The country is so PC that soon enough faith schools will be able to dictate their own curriculums entirely with absolute impunity. OFSTED won't be allowed to go near or by and such schools will be free to fill childrens' heads with as much nonsense as they want to. Pork is bad for you, contraception is wrong, unnecessary genital mutilation of innocent children is acceptable and so on.

I say keep religion out of education as a so called "underpinning ethos". If people are that devout , let them home school their children.

Religion should be taught in schools only in so far as to inform children that it is something that shapes the world and the people in it - much as economics or history does. It is totally possible to represent religion in this way and to educate children about it.

The existence of a god or gods should never, repeat never, be presented or taught as fact as part of the curriculum in state funded schools.

BTW quite a few parents wrote to Ofsted about the literacy fiasco and the letters were ignored and then shredded, referred to in the report as 'parents having unreasonable expectations'. But the school got a 2 for academic standards and a 1 for the spiritual development side of things.

What bollox it all is.

DandyDan a survey would depend on the questions asked. As I said, most people would be totally ambivalent so if asked "do you mind if faith schools exist" most people would probably say no, they didn't mind.

That's totally different to asking the same person if they'd mind if their child attended an Islamic faith school if that was the only one available to them....

DandyDan - There is nothing on there about public support - it's just a bunch of stuff saying they are nice.

JackStarBright - thanks you, I thought it might be something like that. In our increasingly secular age though, allowing faith groups the enormously valuable resource of this platform in public life for such a small amount of money seems crazy. Faith groups are getting the good end of the deal here.

If members of the public have been asked in a survey (as a representative selection of society, as with any survey) if they support schools with a religious ethos and 69% say they do, then that is public support.

Is there a differential being made in this thread between Christian faith schools and those of other world faiths? So much for multi-culturalism...

I think YABU. Why should taxpayers with no children fund any schools? - they don't have children. Why should I fund non-faith schools if my children go to a faith school that I have to fund separately? If I have boys I cannot access girls schools so why should I fund girls only schools? If my children aren't bright why should my taxes fund grammar schools? If my children don't have SEN why should I fund SEN schools?

Obviously exaggerating but why is it only ever faith schools that are singled out? Probably because they achieve better results? I live more than 2 miles from my closest faith school but drive my children there anyway even though I have 2 highly oversubscribed schools within 200m of my doorstep. If I chose to go to my local school another family would loose that place. The children attending faith schools are actually not taking places in non-faith schools which are then avaialble for other children.

Good points, 23balloons.

Thanks!

Dandydan - that might be, but it's not on that link...
I'm not making a differentiation between Christian or other faith schools. It's just easier to find figures etc for c of e, and their is no one from non-Christian religions on this thread, so I have to argue with you lot...

23ballons - but that doesn't answer the question of why the state should subsidize faith schools at all. What does the state get out of it? Faith schools may get better results, but only due to having better pupils.

Faith groups do a lot better out of faith schools than the state does