to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

I do think government-funded religious schools are odd, even though I'm technically religious. But that could just be that we don't have them here, so I'm not used to it. When I worked at a larger school it went a little too far, though: any mention of god or gods was cracked down on immediately, even if the child in question believed in it. There were no holiday celebrations of any kind, even though the children of atheist parents celebrated Christmas as a secular holiday.

I live in a smaller town now and work at a smaller school, and I was to hear them sing a song mentioning Jesus at the Christmas concert last year, even though I'd lay odds that the audience was 99% Christian at least. In the smaller school the children can talk about God if they wish, but it's not taught and the only thing close to a prayer is the line in the Pledge of Allegiance that says "One nation under God, with liberty and justice for all," and the school makes very clear in the handbook that children who do not believe in God (or the pledge for political reasons)can remain sitting and not say it.

So...like I said, I believe in God and tell my son that I believe in God, but if I didn't I'd be sort of upset with him being taught that, I think.

So, no, YANBU, and sorry for rambling. :)

YANBU OP I mean - heaven forbid your child should have to attend the school in the middle of a council estate. Oh the horror .

If you want your child in the faith school the join the church - if you are atheist then the school should not be an issue.

you shouldn't have to get religion to access state funded education (and that is 90% state funded) pirate -that's the problem.

Yank - you know, I think the Pledge of Allegiance is odd (and definitely indoctrination!). Is that how it feels for a Yank? I've always wanted to find out what different Yankees think of it.

I used to not say it, actually, because at the time I didn't think that America works for the liberty and justice of all its citizens all the time. And I still don't always, but after knowing about some of the horrible things that go on in other parts of the world I'm quite glad I'm American. And most of the individual people I know believe very strongly in freedom and civil rights for everyone, even if our government doesn't always seem to. So I say it now.

Hope that makes sense...I'm in serious need of caffeine here. :o

Speedy - either the church would subsidies them or they would have empty schools in which case the state could take them over.

Fuzzface - a secular education doesn't mean pretending religion doesn't exist. It involves not taking a position about whether one is true or not.

I suspect that of that 70%, a lot are not exactly thoughtful, committed Christians.

The level of indoctrination is moot - the state should not be supporting any religion.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou, 70% comes from the government census and yes I agree with you that does not mean thoughtful committed Christians.

whomovedmychocolate, 7 - 10% from the churches own attendance returns, other recent research (by Tearfund in 2006) has it at 15% but suggests that is not weekly attendance but regular (which may mean as little as monthly attendance).

Sorry have only just read original post but wanted to reply....

My daughters go to a catholic school. I am catholic, my DH isn't, although he is happy for them to be raised catholic. We attend mass every week. I send them to catholic school as I want support raising them RC.

This year, 8 catholic children who attend church every week did not get a place as so over-subscribed.

I would say that 80% of the kids in their classes we see at mass every week.

The other thing I would say is that, even as a lifelong committed catholic, even I find the level of religious influence to the education they recieve quite stifling....if I wasn't catholic I wouldn't want it being 'rammed down their throats' so much....IYSWIM.

I agree that you shoul not have to be religious to access state education. My son goes to a Catholic school and I am not catholic and nor is he. Rather than suggesting all religious schools should be private perhaps we should be saying that these schools should be taking a fair proportion of local children. Or protesting about the lack of state education. Just got irritated about the OP comparing the school unfavourably to the one in the middle of a council estate. I live on a council estate and we are not all non english speakers. Anyway - another argument for another time.

There needs to be more state education (non religious) or faith schools should have to take the local catchment children who want to attend. The OP is not being unreasonable in that but if she is not religious then why would she want her child to attend a religious school anyway?

Faith schools are only part funded by local authority the rest of the funding comes from the money put into the collection plate on a sunday. Therefore we pay twice, via our taxes and our donations. I also pay for my daughter to attend an independant faith secondary school because it is an excellent school academically and morally and that is what I want for my daughter, therefore I pay three times but I dont expect to be able to say please reimburse me my taxes or please dont use my money on funding state schools which provide education for those who dont wish to have a faith, the option of a non faith school. Everyone is open to choose, faith schools do take non faith pupils but there is an entrance criteria and the places are filled firstly by those who are of the faith, in some places but not all - who can prove they attend the church (and therefore donate) and who want to be part of the ethos of the school. If you think he state schools are not as good it is not because the faith schools are funded better so maybe it is because the parents of the faith schools bring ther children up with better discipline and morals and therefore the children are more "teachable"

I think it's simpler than that. I have no problem with faith groups running schools, as long as they do not promote their reilgon in the school, and do not select admission on religous grounds. If they did that then no one would mind about them, and there would be no incentive for parents to pretend to views they do not hold.

If faith groups DON'T want to do that, they can either run them privately (they don't have to charge parents for this if they don't want too) or hand them over to the state.

. Its very interesting to hear the views of some of the teachers and leaders of faith school, things you might not hear socially. He also speaks to some of the children, and this is the most interesting part - particularly when he asks them about science.

On the whole the programme is balanced, allowing the participants to give their views, and presents both sides. Dawkins listens respectfully.

What I saw was that christian schools are quite mild in the UK, but less tolerant religions dont educate their pupils where there is potential conflict with what they teach religiously. So pupils dont understant basics like evolution.

I met university science students who dont understand evolution (due to their faith). Its scary to think this will increase in the UK thanks to the increase in faith schools.

TheCoalition - I very much doubt that the CofE would be able to afford to subsidise them, not least because they have long been suffering a financial crisis which has meant they can hardly afford ministers' pensions. That said, they could probably sell off part of their vast land portfolio, but if they haven't done that to finance pensions they won't be doing it for schools either. As for the state funding it - not for the next few years, with the current sweeping spending cuts. A 10% increase in spending on 30% of schools? Are you sure?

Yank - interesting. I wasn't actually aware of the detail of the whole pledge, though I understand your reasons for changing your attitude towards saying the pledge. No, my opinion was more about the fact of being virtually forced to pledge allegiance to the state every day...it seems an exceedingly undemocratic practice, especially as it is started on such young children. I somehow imagine that that's part of the reason for non-thinking Yanks going round shouting 'we're the best country in the worrrrld', etc (who, I'm sure, make you blush - but you shouldn't be ashamed of idiots just because they're from your country). Hope that makes sense! Have young baby so am v tired...zzzzz

What about the glaring issue that many non-faith schools are simply failing, and that that IS the reason that so many parents rush to lie their way into faith schools? If faith schools' private funding is withdrawn it will not improve the performance of underperforming schools now, will it?

The bit where he comes to mumsnet is on there as well :)

life - when I was a uni science student I did understand evolution.* And I also accept it. There are quite a lot of us around, as it happens. Many people happily ignore that fact in order to substantiate their anti-faith viewpoint with incomplete evidence.

(* - I say "did" because it was quite a long time ago...there's quite a lot about my degree which I've completely forgotten, including many the details of evolutionary theory, which were once at my fingertips when my brain was younger )

Faith schools should definitely be privately funded.

Anything state funded should be open to everyone and open to every potential employee and to every staff member seeking promotion.

YANBU as education should be entirely secular.

Segregation is completely wrong. If parents want to chose that way of life for their child then it should be them and not the state who pay.

Well I agree faith schools should be funded by their faith.

My kids school is like you describe -'higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc' One of our ex pupils got 10 A in her GCSE and her friend also an ex pupil got 9 A and 2 As. School like this can produce great results - you would be surprised. I digress.

ozmetric I didn't say that I was against faith schools, I said that I was against discriminatory admission policies. There is no reason why faith schools cannot operate under the same admission code as community schools.

Regarding whoever it was who said church goers are paying twice for their faith schools, once through their taxes and once via the collection plate: the money contributed by the church to VA schools is tiny compared to what is provided by the state. The government funds 100% of the running costs and at least 90% of the capital costs. The remaining very small financial contribution made by the church in no way justifies the exclusion such a large proportion of the non-churchgoing (or other-churchgoing) local community.

Hi Speedy - thats great, most people do (at the moment).

These students were from a very religious country, and they did not understand that species could evolve to become different species. We tried to discuss it with them and it was as if there was a wall in their brain, beyond which they were not allowed to progress. It was the scariest experience I have had at university.

Have a look at the programme on faith schools, the part 20 minutes in shows quite well how that might happen.

life - sadly, based on my experience of certain people, I suspect those students' 'brain wall' operates across a far wider sphere of influence than just science.

Btw, life - will watch the prog later...am working! (Ahem. )

Well our village primary school is a faith school. So people have to send their kid here whetehr they want a faith school or not. I wouldn't be happy about having to pay for it. I'm a complete non-believer and have never had to profess any religious belief at all. Don't think I've ever been asked.

Speedy - their 'brain wall' was also evident in their attitude to women

Next year my DS will not got to school with some of his best nursery friends. They will go to the Catholic school 10 yards from my front door, whilst he will walk nearly a mile - in the city - to the nearest non-dom school. State funded faith schools are a disgrace. Try living on the west coast of Scotland and experience whole life segregation starting at age 5 when you have to say bye to your pals because they are catholic.