to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

Altinkum if the RC/whatever school is grant maintained, then no, they can select how they like.

I went to Catholic schools and my DS1 (soon DS2)go to a GM Catholic Primary.

Religion wasn't rammed down your throat, lots of pupils weren't catholics anyway. We had to do RE GCSE (which taught you about Judaism/Islam and other religions as well as posing ethical questions about abortion and Euthanasia) I felt it was very thought provoking and enlightening. Even though we were taught sometimes by Nuns we were never told how to think and nothing was right or wrong as long as we could logically present an argument. We were shown each religion's standpoint on issues and then encouraged to think for ourselves. I really enjoyed GCSE RE, in 6th form we had RE during our free periods as a sort of General Studies topic, again encouraging you to think about subjects.

Oh and the sacraments take piss all time out of the school curriculum.

The reason why in Scotland no-one needs to fake a religion in order to get in is that the Roman Catholic schools (in practice, the only faith schools available, although there is a state jewish school and, I think, a state Church of Scotland - as opposed to non-denom - school) are run in parallel to the non-denominational schools.

So effectively, you are in the catchment of two schools (in cities at least): the non-denom one and the catholic one.

Our local "catholic" primary school is about 80% muslim/sikh (don't know the proportions of each).

At ds' non-denom school, RME (Religious and Moral Education) covers all the major religions and does Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam all in roughly equal proportions. The faith it probably doesn't do justice to the Jewsih faith.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou, yes that's one of the things faith schools are about, but it's in the context of a faith, and there may be some subtle differences to a secular morality.

The secular morality is not a neutral, default position, it should be one choice but not forced on everyone.

Obviously it's not just those with a faith who have moral values. But if secularists hold such similar ideals, then why would they have anything against the curriculum and values offered by faith schools?

OP - YANBU - Faith schools are a completely disgraceful idea and their expansion will only build problems for the community in the future.

ozmetric, indeed I don't have anything against the curriculum and values offered by my local faith school, except that the only way that they will accept my children as pupils is if I systematically and over a period of several years up to admission feign a belief that I don't truly hold.

whomovedmychocolate, the statistics for church attendance are that somewhere between 7 to 10% of the country attend a place of Christian worship each week. However, in the last census around 70% of the nation described themselves as Christian (and more indicated that they were Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish or of another faith - including Jedi). So weekly attendance at worship is not the only way of analysing people's adherence to a faith.

On my calculations the number of faith schools is about 37% for Primary schools and 18% for Secondary schools. However, these statistics include Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Seventh Day Adventists who wouldn't be included in the statistics for church attendance.

However, given all of this I am surprised that your LEA isn't able to provide an alternative educational option for your child (as this means that 63% of Primary schools and 82% of Secondary schools are not faith based). Though I grant that many faith schools are over subscribed and LEAs often cannot provide enough places for parents who would like to have their children attend a faith based school.

"For example, catholic children need specific teaching around the sacraments (communion, confirmation mainly). This could not be taught over lunchtime, there wouldn't be enough time."

Fine.

Let the Catholic Church set up and fund their own schools and they can teach this sort of thing all day long if they like. People who think it's desperately important that thier children learn this sort of stuff can then pay out of thier own pockets to send their children to them.

Simples.

That way more State money will be freed up for normal schools.

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the Richard Dawkins programme on this a few weeks ago was enlightening.

Apparently only 7% of the population attend church/mosque/synagogue, etc, but 36% of schools are now faith schools. WTF?

And even as a heathen if you did want to send your child to a faith school, it would seem there's a fair amount of indoctrination going on. 'Religious education' classes don't have to be inspected by Ofsted, and its in the RE classes that stuff like sex education, and some science, is taught. In one Muslim school, while evolution was being taught in science lessons, the Koran version - the world being created 6000 (?) years ago ? was taught in RE lessons. When questioned, all the pupils believed the Koran version.

We're going back to the dark ages...

Sorry, having now read the thread I realise I'm behind the times with my stats.

But it really is worrying. My DS is only 1, and thankfully there are plenty of non-religious primary schools round here, but the only secondary one that isn't 'poor' is Catholic. How's it come to this, that a religion few people believe in can have so much power over the education of children? Something's gone very wrong.

herbaceous, that Richard Dawkins programme was worrying. Not least that the science teacher in that muslim school was completely unable to answer a very basic question about evolution. No wonder all the pupils there went along with the Koran version.

GeneviveHawkings, as the statistics above indicate a large percentage of the tax giving public indicate that they hold a particular faith position and therefore in one sense they are already funding the faith schools. To exclude faith schools from public funding when a large percentage of the public holds that faith might end up diminishing support for state funded education.

Lizzylou, if teaching about the sacrements etc takes so little time, why do we need special RC schools to teach them?

Fuzzface - even if it's true that 70% of people call themselves religious, I still think religion has no place in education. If the faith is practised at home, surely that's enough. It's purely a leisure activity! You don't get many 'faith' offices...

As RE Head of Department in a CEVA school I can categorically state that CEVA schools teach ALL the major world religions through religious education.

Our Christian ethos comes through collective worship NOT RE lessons.

Snorbs, dunno, all I know is that I, coming from a Catholic school background knew one hell of a lot more about other religions than my peers who attended secular schools when I got to University/work.

As I say though, my DC's school is Grant Maintained.

Someone said earlier that 1 in 3 schools is a church school. If that is the case, supposing al those schools had their state funding withdrawn and they had to become, in part, at least, fee-paying. I think it's fair to assume that the majority of British parents are not well-off enough to have thousands of spare pounds just waiting to be spent. What would happen to the 1/3 of children whose parents could not afford school fees?

Snorbs, in answer to your suggestion about faith-based lunchtime clubs I would say that my preference first and foremost is that my children's school be local. The faith element is less important for me. I doubt that they'd attend lunchtime clubs and it wouldn't concern me if they didn't.

IME of attending a faith school the level of 'indoctrination' which people are writing about on this thread is really very low. My school had a higher than average proportion of Christians, but they never actually spoke about their faith unless they attended the lunchtime Christian Union (nod to Snorbs ). So unless something has radically changed in the last 20 years I think the fear of indoctrination in the classroom is bigger than the actuality. Certainly school assemblies had an overtly Christian message, though many of the assemblies were run by students and so were moral without the religious element.

I would say that a very small proportion of the children I went to school with would have called themselves practising Christians when they left school. Most were agnostic or atheist.

Ceva?

Church of England Voluntary Aided

So, doesn't that indicate that it's not the right school for you to choose? 1. it's clearly not right to be hypocritical, and 2. you're against faith schools, so why would you want to send your children to one?

"the only way that they will accept my children as pupils is if I systematically and over a period of several years up to admission feign a belief that I don't truly hold."

Speedy, I could have written your post - but you put it more eloquently than me. My preference when looking at schools for my oldest was to use the one nearest to where we lived as long as it was reasonably okay academically, that the children are happy there and good values are reinforced. It just happens that it is a secular primary but it wouldn't have worried me too much if it was a church school, assuming that we'd have been able to get a place of course! The indoctrination at school was minimal when I went to a C of E run primary school in the 70s. I remember singing hymns in assembly and praying at the end but that was it. I can't really see that it has changed that much. TV documentaries are going to choose the most extreme examples of schools that they can find because it makes better television!

herbaceous 70% designate themselves 'Christian' not religious. Many more would designate themselves to be Muslim or Sikh or Hindu. To ban religion from the education system would involve ignoring much English literature (which refers to faith directly or develops metaphors from the language of faith), much of British history (including the establishment of most of the institutions we value today - healthcare, education, British law), it would also impoverish our multi-ethnic, multi-faith culture. It also depends what you mean by faith offices? You get many youth workers funded by faith based groups, numerous Non Governmental Organisations are founded by faith groups (Christians Aid, Scouts, Boy's Brigade, CAFOD, Red Cross, CAAP etc. etc.), and in our multi-faith world there are all sorts of opportunities that require people to understand religious views and values (this would apply to our military working in strongly Muslim countries, Aid agencies trying to understand development issues in India, and journalists reporting on faith and politics worldwide).

I think to designate faith simply an activity is to misunderstand the nature of faith (for many people their faith goes to the core of who they are and isn't simply an activity once a week). Also most people live by some creed or faith based value system whether or not it is acknowledged openly and scrutinised.

Ta

FuzzFace: "I think to designate faith simply an activity is to misunderstand the nature of faith (for many people their faith goes to the core of who they are and isn't simply an activity once a week). Also most people live by some creed or faith based value system whether or not it is acknowledged openly and scrutinised."

I heartily agree. Good post.

Fuzzface - rural location, both local schools are CofE - that's the choice we have. We can state a 'preference' for another school - we won't get it though.

I'm not sure which figures you are quoting - mine may be out of date but I'd be very surprised to find 10% of the population attend a christian service weekly. I will come back to you on why later. There is a good reason I find this hard to believe but I need to look up the reference before I say......

May I suggest those interested in discussing faith/secular education visit www.richarddawkins.net and read some of the discussions over there. A lot of intelligent debate (not that you lot aren't intelligent but it gets more indepth and if you want a robust debate it's a good place).