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Original poster

... to Protest the Pope?

508 replies

stubbornhubby · 08/09/2010 09:03

A friend of mine told me at the weekend that this will make me an extremist...anyway we had a long thread about this in July and a few people said they'd be keen, like me, to wave a banner as he parades around the country.

There's a big march in London on Sat 18th, Hyde park Corner @ 1.30pm
details here
www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/

Also, if you live in SW London, a Small demo in Strawberry Hill on Fri 17th @9am. (NB official visti website says you will not be able to see the pope arrriving/departing SMUC - I think he must be using helicopter. Or apparating Smile)

OP posts:
TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 17/09/2010 13:07

Treats - I'm almost certain that the research would say that is true and that the way to achieve that is economic development. And that in the mean time more condoms would make things better.

Treats · 17/09/2010 13:09

I consider myself well and truly disapproved of! But you said you wanted to douse my torch - which suggests that you think you have the right to attack me for my beliefs and to force me to change my mind - or 'deprogramme' me. Why?

Clearly you don't respect people's rights to prioritise faith over reason, and it sounds as if you never have. I think you'll find that people will continue to do that if they wish to, and that there is absolutely no compulsion on anyone to take you on or to concede the argument. If you make a compelling enough argument, you will convince people. They might even change their minds from what they used to think. But you have to do better than "Because I'm right, hah! And you're wrong because I said you are".

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:11

hobnobsaremyfave

Not sure what to say to that.

There is no "poor little Me" here. and my tone is unchanged. perhaps it is the limitations of this medium that has given that impression.

I cant be arsed to chase up another posters remarks to balance my assumption that you felt I was being aggressive and angry, since you stated as much. and now you use that to "prove" I am "quite frankly pathetic."

Am I supposed to argue with this kind of crap?

Treats · 17/09/2010 13:21

TCNY - probably. But you have to admit that there is more to it than just advocating condom use. I always feel that the people who are flinging accusations at the Pope are trying to obscure the wider issue of sexual inequality, because to address that would challenge the status quo - threaten the patriarchy if you will.

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:21

TCNY

  1. I have never suggested stooping people in the street and demanding they defend their faith. but in a debate I no longer have to respect faith. that is not rude that is the removal of a debating handicap

2)If Mr. Ratzinger condemns secularism and calls for the faithful to be a beacon, then I am obliged to counter that presumption, if you put yourself up to be shot at you can't demand I respect the very thing I wish to argue against.

  1. Obviously I mean that we should restrict the power of faith bodies to indoctrinate children. the job of pulling the deluded back may be lost already but I don't want to stand back as more lives are ruined.

The God and faeries argument is a bit unfair, I once got 5p from the tooth faerie, and have seen no evidence of god.

DandyDan · 17/09/2010 13:22

I agree, TCNY, that availability of condoms would make things less dangerous in the short-term, but, as Treats agrees, and yourself too, it seems, economic development and education and women's rights have a huge deal to do with the sexual promiscuity mostly imposed by men which can lead to the spread of HIV. But I would be concerned that with condom use, it merely perpetuates the practice of men of sleeping (now safely) with as many women as they wish, whether that is via prostitution or rape or multiple affairs/sleeping-around.

curryfreak · 17/09/2010 13:27

Tinnitus, i've just been looking at the coverage on television
Was actually lovely to see so many smiling enthusiastic children. I'm surprised you're not there protesting, telling them how delusional they are!

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 17/09/2010 13:28

Tinitus it's the sort of crap you are dishing out so don't be surprised when it's thrown back at you. Just suggesting that the way you come across does you no favours and put people's backs up so badly that they don't want to argue rationally with you and it all turns into a bunfight.

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:29

Treats

"Clearly you don't respect people's rights to prioritise faith over reason,"

No I don't, but that doesn't really matter in the long run. What I want is for every one to accept that their personal delusion is just that and nothing more. Not an excuse to fete a shaky old bigot, or rape children, or lie about condoms, or interfere with education.

My argument is that it is the nature of religion to interfere with my life and so I say no, you cannot simply say it is enough to have faith.

Treats · 17/09/2010 13:31

DandyDan - agree with what you just said, re: condom use.

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:34

hobnobsaremyfave

But your not debating, you're just throwing. I don't want to appear all "Daftpunk" but I really don't care about your personal opinion of me. this is a debating forum and I am here to have my say.

Dione · 17/09/2010 13:34

"Now we can say without counter that Catholics are deluded and sad and most be rooted out and deprogrammed,"

Tinnitus, wtf are you proposing here?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 17/09/2010 13:35

Tinnitus

  1. You never had too. I never have.

  2. You never had to respect it

  3. If you put this more politely, especially as part of a freedom of choice argument you might make more headway.

I agree with the root of most of your position, but you are ascribing the Pope to much power and you are making us (atheists/secularists/rationalists) look bad.

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 17/09/2010 13:37

By all means have your say but .........

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 17/09/2010 13:38
Treats · 17/09/2010 13:44

It most certainly isn't an excuse to rape children and I would be capable of more abuse than you can dream of towards anyone who suggested that it was.

RE: condoms - see my exchange with TCNY. I believe the argument is more nuanced than you make out.

Why do you care if people want to stand in a park and wave their flags at someone? People do this every week at gigs - you're not getting angry at them?

The church don't 'interfere' with education. They founded schools and continue to provide education wherever it's needed throughout the world. We're lucky in this country to have the luxury to moan about not wanting to have to send our DCs to faith schools.

I simply don't understand why faith is interfering with your life if you don't want it to. If it upsets you that much, go and think about something else for a while.

curryfreak · 17/09/2010 13:44

Dione, she's never actually clafified what she meant by that statement, but it has very ugly unddertones..

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 17/09/2010 13:45

Treats/DandyDan - HIV condom use programs are targeted at those already engaging in risky behaviours. I don't think a truck driver is likely to sleep with MORE prostitutes because he is using condoms - that isn't the limiting factor to his behaviour.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 17/09/2010 13:47

BTW - The position of the people I know in interataional health on the effects of Catholic Doctrine is "No one is ever going to quote on that" ;)

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:47

TheCoalitionNeedsYou

Thank you for not screaming in fear at an aggressive artiest.

  1. I know, but now it cannot be thrown in to a debate.

  2. I know, but now it cannot be thrown in to a debate.

  3. not looking to make headway here. just making sure people understand that the rules have changed.

Mr. Ratzinger heads an organisation with a billion followers. and the poor turn out to protest against him makes us look bad.

Dione · 17/09/2010 13:49

"What I want is for every one to accept that their personal delusion is just that and nothing more."

So you want everyone of faith to say that they are just deluded? And what if they don't? You gonna root them all out and put them into re-education camps for deprogramming?

"My argument is that it is the nature of religion to interfere with my life and so I say no, you cannot simply say it is enough to have faith."
In what way is religion interfering with your life?

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:52

Treats

In a nutshell we have the problem here. an attack on religion is not a personal attack on you. unless you chose to make it so. Of course you belief compels you to. but that doesn't change the fact that my stated issue is with faith, not its victims.

If your personal views differ from dogma that just makes you a bad catholic, so there is hope.

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:53

Dione

Debate and nothing more.

Dione · 17/09/2010 13:58

Agreed Curryfreak. He sounds like an intolerant hate freak with pretty fundamentalist views. And there ain't no fun in his mentalism.Grin

Tinnitus · 17/09/2010 13:59

Dione

My child is subject to a barrage of Christian nonsense at school and it is a constant battle to stop it. She is growing up in a world full of adults hell bent on warping her mind. so no I have never suggested camps for deprogramming but I have to suffer the reverse.