To ask my brother and family not to go to church when we visit

[Trifle]

I plan on visiting my brother, sil and their 2 children for a weekend in September with my 2 ds's. All the children get on fabulously and really enjoy eachothers company although, due to distance apart, we dont meet up as often as is liked.

My brother and sil are deeply religious to the point of fanaticism. They read the bible every day, pray religiously, attend church at least 2 if not 3 times a week, sometimes twice on a sunday (obviously the message doesnt get through first time).

Now, if we visit at the weekend and stay overnight, would IBU to ask them not to go to church on a sunday morning as the whole thing takes about 3 hours and we just end up hanging around waiting for them to come back. This defeats the object of the whole trip if we are there to see them plus I also think it is rude to abandon your guests.

This is a wind-up, yes? I think you're being ever so unreasonable, I'm afraid.

Now, if they insisted you go with them I'd be in favour of setting light to their nostril hair, but until then....

mathanxiety, you would have a point if the OP was staying for a week or two. But it's a weekend.

The OP says they are 'a distance' away, so am assuming her family will arrive not long before lunch on the Sat, and leave not long after lunch on the Sunday. So that leaves Sat afternoon, Sat evening, and Sun morning to do stuff/chat/generally be sociable.

And the kids will be in bed Sat evening presumably, so not playing with their cousins. So taking Sunday morning out of the equation is a fairly big deal, especially for the kids.

Missing their Sunday service is probably a big deal for them though.

A "three hour" Sunday Service!!

Three hours - is what's unreasonable.

TheHeathenOfSuburbia - Beast, you're wrong about the prawns; if you're a desert-dwelling tribe miles from the sea, with the only transport by camel, not eating prawns is v. wise!

Yes, but we are talking of a book which set the rules for all people for all times in all geographical areas. If the rule were qualified, like don't eat bad prawns, that would be a different kettle of fish altogether. I reckon I could tell an off prawn purely by smell even after having my nostril hairs set alight by Heracles.

As someone who has been stuck in the Namibian desert for sixteen hours, if I were writing rules for a desert-dwelling tribe miles from the sea, rule number one would be "Make sure have enough water with you at all times" and rule number two would be "Hire a satellite phone". Any strictures on prawn eating would be way, way down the list; way beyond staying away from menstruating women even.

Trifle, I think you are me. My BIL and SIL are deeply deeply religious, and have made very clear how sad they are that we and DD are going to hell. They also disappear for hours at a time to services when we visit, and baby cousin still shouts "Alleluia!" when she sees something she likes, like a cat or a slide. Whenever we go to see them, we shuffle through countless graces, and there is always "light reading material" magically appeared by the guest bed ("God's plan for women", on one side, "God's plan for men" on the other").

I would prefer it if they didn't.

But no doubt they would prefer it if we didn't swear all the time, took them to a nice church when they came to us, said grace, demonstrated lovely Christian values to their children etc. They would be even happier if they could save us! Happily, after a brief attempt to convert me ("So Jesus, domesticslattern... great guy or not?"), they don't go on about it. So it's live and let live really. Especially when we are guests in their home. I do understand where you are coming from though.

YANBU. If you had something that you loved doing on a Sunday, then you'd give it up for once if you had family staying wouldn't you?

Can't bear these people who put their belief in fairies regligion before their family. After all, they only go to church to guarantee themselves a place in heaven. How much more selfish can you get?

(I speak from personal experience, can you tell? )

their there whevs

religion is a bit like supporting a football team - it's nice to have a hobby

", demonstrated lovely Christian values to their children "

Such Christian Values as "[making it] very clear how sad they are that we and DD are going to hell". Presumably their bible has had Matthew 7:1-5 torn out, so here it is for you to print out and stick back into their copy:

1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

2 For in the same way as you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

hear hear

YABU

But not because it's their religion and therefore unassailable. I agree with the posters who have said it is, in principle, no different from passionate support of a football team.

However, if I were staying with friends who passionately supported a football team, and went to the match every weekend, I would not expect them to miss the match. They would be miserable at missing the match; I wouldn't want my friends to be miserable.

Therefore, YABU to expect them to miss something they really really enjoy and find important.

Planks in eyes are all very well, tokyonambu, but what's the point in MNing religion at all, if you're not going to judge those who have fallen short of your ideals? That would just be no fun!

I think that a key point here is whether or not the OP decided unilaterally to stay with her brother over a particular weekend (in which case it'd be unreasonable to expect the brother to drop all his plans).

If, however, the weekend was mutually agreed as the most suitable time to visit, then it's perfectly reasonable to hope that OP's brother could rearrange his visits to church in order that the families can make the most of their limited time together.

The OP says that distance is an impediment to more frequent visits- this suggests to me that her own weekend routine is going out of the window so that she and her family can travel for hours to pay a visit to her brother's family. Surely he could then be a little bit courteous and flexible, and change his family's weekend routine a little bit -perhaps go to an evening or afternoon service instead? Why should all the courtesy go one way? As Tokyonambu says, the family don't go to church when on holiday, so it must be acceptable within the faith to miss or reschedule services occasionally.

can't you all go swimming? take your swimming stuff and towels in the boot of the car and then when they away to church you go of to the nearest leisure pool and have a swim and bit of fun - that would take at leat and hour and a half and then have soem breakfast when you get hoem or out and about

Re: 3 hours;

My family is mormon and that's how I was raised. Standard, minimum sunday service is 3 hours, not including chatting w/friends, time spent helping set up before or clean up after, required meetings, etc. It is not unheard of to spend 6 hours in church commitments, which is seen as reasonable since another dictate is that NO work can be done on sunday - which many extend to doing things that cause others to work, such as shopping. My mother won't even allow television on sundays.

It includes a version of communion that they do which they would not miss for anything. When my mother came to visit for the birth of my daughter she still rode a bus and two trains ~2 hours each way to go to sunday service. When service is not available they will sit down as a family, sing a few hymns, and do their own communion.

I still wouldn't call them fanatical (and even weird is relative), but it would be VERY unreasonable for me to expect them to not attend just because I was in town, even when I had flown halfway across the world to be there. It's important to them, and I have no right to expect them to give up something, anything, which is truly important to them, just because I have graced them with my presence.

How does Tokyo know they don't go to church when on holiday?? I know families that would do that if there was a church of similar denomination there.

YABVU-this is a major part of their lives of course you cant ask them not to go.My dh is RC and goes to Mass wherever he is even on holiday[he found a church in Izmir in Turkey]!I am not RC but am happy to do my own thing or to accompany him.It matters.

"How does Tokyo know they don't go to church when on holiday??"

Because the original poster told us so:

"When my brother goes on holiday they dont go to church, I suppose they just up the ante on the praying front, dont really understand why they cant do that when we visit."

these religious threads always attract sooo much more attention. I bet if it was about the OP's brother giving up Sunday footie when he was committed to the team, there'd be about 8 responses.

My humblest apologies Tokyo. Must have missed that somewhere in the last 12 pages...

" It's important to them, and I have no right to expect them to give up something, anything, which is truly important to them"

Right? Expect? No, you're absolutely right: they can do what they want. However, if you were minded to conclude that this meant that they found the church more important that their daughter, you would be being reasonable.

No one is, I trust, suggesting that people don't have a right to believe, worship and commit time to belief and worship in any way they deem appropriate. However, it's perfectly legal (etc) wander around your own house stark naked when you've got houseguests or when you are a houseguest, but polite hosts, and guests don't.

One argument is that the complete guest attunes themselves to the host's requirements; another is that the complete host attunes themselves to the guest's requirements. Good manners implies a compromise, and playing "my house, my rules" is as rude as playing "I'm a guest, treat me like royalty".

With friends you get to choose, and obnoxious guests don't get invited again while obnoxious hosts don't get many visitors. With family it can be harder, and people will put up with a lot to avoid falling out because they've seen a toxic "X doesn't speak to Y because of what happened at Christmas in 1937" and don't wish to replicate it. That doesn't mean they can't mutter in the car on the way home or as they wave the guests off on the drive, and it doesn't mean that hosts, or guests, can take the piss. I think inviting people for the weekend and then going out for the morning is in poor taste, irrespective of the worthiness of the event. Others disagree. That's all.

Trifle, are you as open with your opinions of your brother to his face as you are on Mn?

Have you considered that he might just fancy a bit of a break from you halfway through the weekend? Are you perhaps quite hard work?

YABU

We need to know whose idea the visit was before we dissect this any further.