for reporting nursery to ofsted...

[beccas]

DD has persistently had poo marks in her knickers, since joining pre-school room, most days in fact (3 days a week!). It started when she was 2yr 9mth and she is now 3yr 3mth. I don't expect her to be able to wipe on her own.
Their response was that according to child protection laws, if a child refuses assistance they are not allowed to touch the child. She would be desperate to rejoin the playing so I can imagine her saying No or denying she had done a No.2. I have instructed them several times to make sure she is clean but it still happens. I know it happens to plenty of other children too.

DD has had two serious UTI infections this year and has now got to have her kidneys scanned for damage, and take an antibiotic EVERY DAY for a year. The doctor said it was definitely caused by poor hygiene which certainly doesn't happen when she is with me.
I have reported them to Ofsted. Would you have done the same?

Could you not by her some fun looking kandoo type moist wipes and teach her to use them at home and send her in with them?

Child protection sounds made up twaddle btw. Contrary to popular belief even schools have to cope with children in nappies (days of inclusion before people become aghast) and there is quite clear guidance on this. It really shouldn't be any sort of issue if a 3 year old needs help with toileting. Yes, encourage independence but not at the extent of a child's health.

My DTDs have just finished nursery and will be starting school next week. One is good at using the toilet and will bat my hand away saying "I can DOOOOO it" when I try to help her. If she does the same at nursery, then I can quite see why a member of staff there would be loathe to "fight" her over it. The other one is dreadful - we've had real issues with pooing, and she will deny that she needs one, over and over, until she (occasionally) starts doing it in her knickers. She might also take herself to the loo, do a poo, wipe herself (though not always brilliantly) and then say that she hasn't done one. If she's at home, I can spot the signals, and will take her to the loo. If I'm not there, I have to rely on her to sort it herself. Nursery staff have other children to look after too, so I don't expect them to be on the lookout for EvilTwin1's special "I need a poo" signals. So sometimes, she does come home with "skidmarks" (nice) in her knickers. I have to say, I have never considered contacting Ofsted. I have discussed it with her, and with nursery, and we practice proper wiping technique at home.

IMO (and I work in education), Ofsted is there for serious problems - it is, after all the office for standards in education. Whilst I understand the OP's distress at her daughter's illness, I honestly don't think that this is the kind of thing Ofsted should be dealing with - contact the nursery first, talk to the management, get it sorted at that level, and leave Ofsted to sort out big issues.

EvilTwins you don't think that - as a result of the nursery's failure to tackle this issue - a child getting UTI infections, having possible kidney damage and having to take antibiotic every day for a year is serious?

What would be serious in your book?

OFSTED do look at issues such as hygiene, particularly in early years care BTW.

I don't think that Ofsted should be asked to investigate an issue which relates to one child. Obviously is is a serious issue for that child's mother, but I think that going to Ofsted about it is an over-reaction.

IMO, it's like going to Oftsed if you have a child at secondary school who is being bullied, or who has a personality clash with one of his teachers - you would contact the school first, then maybe the governers.

It's not that I don't think the OP has a genuine issue, I just don't see it as an Oftsed issue.

But if you had a child who was being bullied over a period of 6 months, every day, and the school didn't do anything about it or even discuss a plan for dealing with it (telling you that CP policy prevented them intervening) and it continued to the point that it caused an illness (as confirmed by a medical professional) - then would you consider reporting it to OFSTED?

No. I would consider discussing it with the governing body (nursery management in this case) I don't think that reporting it anywhere would be appropriate because this is an issue with MY child only. I would also discuss strategies with my child about how to deal with it.

Lowri - I'm a teacher. Ofsted is for ensuring that standards in schools are maintained. Their inspections ensure that schools are delivering the curriculum in the correct manner and that the schools' management teams are working properly. I would be amazed if Ofsted did anything in the OP's case other than refer back to the nursery staff to investigate. I genuinely, and after a lot of thought, believe that contacting Ofsted was both OTT and inappropriate.

But we don't know it is just one child do we? There may be other children at the nursery with the same sort of problem. I would be furious if this were my child. He is 3 1/2, only just toilet trained and while he rarely does a poo outside the house (he has supreme control) I would expect him to come home clean

Granted, there may be other children. But I still don't think it's worthy of a complaint to Ofsted. I do not think that is what Ofsted is for.

Their role is to ensure high standards of care for (in this context) pre-school children. Hygiene is an important part of that.

If you knew someone who left their child sitting in shit all day so that they got a serious UTI wouldn't you think they were guilty of neglect? I would

I think that the op is right to report this to ofsted. She has in her op said that she has discussed this with the nursery and ntohing has improved in six months infact it has got worse and her childs health has been effected.. So she tired going direct to nursery in the first instance and as nothing improved she has had to take her complaint higher... I feel they have failed in their duty of care..

My dd is 3.5 she has been potty trained since she was 2 and she also says she can do it on her own. But she cant... simple as that, if i leave her to do it herself there will be poo everwhere and i know that that night she will be crying as her bits are so sore...

DD starts preschool in september and i am really worried about this there is no way she can poo at a set time as has been suggested here, she gets constipated really easy and is on medication for that at times and there is no way I will ever encourage her to hold it.. and there is no way she can do it herself as she just smears it everywhere.. I am now even more worried as I assumed that the staff would help her.

OP I am so sorry for you and your dd I really hope that everything turns out ok in the end .

YANBU, OP. I would be furious!

Three year olds being stubborn, wilfully independant and denying the obvious... par for the course, really, I should think.

Of course the child is saying she can manage alone or denying there's a problem. She wants to be a big girl and 'big girls' don't need help.

Except that she does and a nursery, a good nursery, would be aware of that. I am astounded at any nursery that would ignore the issue like this, to the point of compromising a child's health.

As for not for OFSTED: If not them, then who?

It may or may not be 'only one child' but since ' every child matters', surely they have a duty to investigate whether one child or fifty? Surely, the point of a body like OFTSED is to catch issues like this when it is only one child, and before it damages lots of children?

Or have I misunderstood, and they really are completely pointless and lazy? Yes, they're there to set standards in Education but in the Early Years, hygiene is a standard that children need to be taught. That isn't happening in this case, so they've failed to meet the standard for education.

I would definitely report.

I would also, btw, be pulling my child ASAP. Can you take time off work, OP, or so you have family who could help?

If the child is refusing help in the first instance, they are very unlikly to take help on the second instance when they are approached by a member of staff who has to let the child know that they smell or have noticable stains in their pants.

I think the only option that the nursery would have in those circumstances would be the contact the parents and ask them to come along and deal with their child themselves.

I would try flushable wetwipes which clean much easier. Make a star chart if necessary and encourage/teach good technique

OP states that her DD has "had poo marks in her knickers". Not that she has been forced to sit in shit. The two are not the same.

I do not deny that this is an issue - of course it is. My point is that this not really an issue worthy of reporting to Ofsted.

From the Ofsted website, in its "guidance for parents and carers section":

"We will not normally investigate cases to do
with individual pupils. However, we will do
our best to offer advice about where you can
get more help, guidance or support."

Ofsted is not there to deal with this kind of issue. I suspect that the OP has gone straight from speaking to the nursery staff to Ofsted, without going for anything in between (nursery management, LA) and that is what my issue is.

Also

"And we are not in a position to:
investigate incidents that are
alleged to have taken place
judge how well a school
investigated or responded to a
complaint, or
mediate between a parent and a
school to resolve a dispute.
If your concerns are about these issues, we
will usually advise you to contact your local
parent partnership or local authority."

Sorry about the random collection of numbers- it was a copy and paste job and that was supposed to be a bullet point.

LAs don't have any power over private nurseries though - the only governing body there is Ofsted isn't it? If I'd complained to my nursery about any kind of matter and it wasn't dealt with then I would go to Ofsted. If it isn't appropriate for them to deal with it then they'd redirect you to the appropriate authority surely? I have no idea what a parent partnership is.

I think the OP is quite clear that her DD's UTI is caused by poor hygiene and if the nursery aren't wiping properly (even if she protests) then they should be. My DS regularly pulls up his pants without wiping and I have to drag him back in so I can do it. Yes he makes a fuss but he just gets poo all over himself if he does it

LAs do have power, if the nursery accepts the LA vouchers, then the LA will have to regulate etc. Ofsted cannot deal with independent schools, so by your argument, would also have nothing to do with private nurseries.

I am quite sure that Ofsted has to deal with a large number of completely inappropriate complaints and reports from parents on a daily basis, and firmly believe that this is an example of one. They doubtless have automatic re-directing advice, so hopefully the OP will be given advice about how to deal with her issue more appropriately.

I stand by my comment that Ofsted is not there to deal with this kind of complaint, and that the OP was unreasonable to contact them when she did.

Op it does not sound like a very good nursery at all. I think it is just awful that they have not tried to resolve this with you and your dd.

Anyone who thinks the OP was perfectly reasonable to go directly to Ofsted about this needs to go onto the Ofsted website and read the guidelines for parents and carers about when it is acceptable to contact them.

IMO, this is the same as contacting the CEO of Sainsbury's because your bread went off a day before the sell-by date. I agree there is a problem, but going to Ofsted about it was overkill.

Mind you, it's unlikely to lead to anything, so I don't know why I'm so bothered. In all liklihood, Ofsted will direct the OP back to the nursery management.

Oops. Spelling.

I have to say I agree with EvilTwins on this one.

I used to work in a nursery and to be honest I am a little unsure as to what you expected them to do. If your daughter is refusing help and actually denying that she has done a poo then what can they do? They can not, nor should they, force her to go back in the toilet so they can clean her. This would be very distressing for her and could easily lead to horrible complaints being made about the nursery.

As you said, she is coming home with marks in her knickers, that is completely different to her having actual poo in her pants, and could quite easily not smell enough for the nursery staff to notice.

However, if you have noticed this for the last 6 months maybe you should be very proactive in getting it sorted, but in a reasonable way. Like others have suggested talk to your daughter, show her the marks in her pants and praise her every time she can keep her knickers clean. Show her how to clean herself, using wetwipes if necessary. Have a chat to nursery again and tell your daughter that the nursery staff are there to help her etc. To me going to OFSTED was a complete over reaction and this should have been dealt with internally.