more family issues - how would you respond to this reply from PIL?

[silverfrog]

Right, I fear this will be along one, so here goes.

we have a (at best) fractured relationship with dh's parents. they are toxic in the extreme, and we are currently not flavour of the month.

this stems from a big row last year, where we travelled a long way for their Golden Wedding anniversary, were treated appallingly (travel not easy for us, as dd1 (ASD) doesn't always cope well). due to several factors, but mostly dd1 being upset after the journey (overnight drive to the other end of the country), we missed seeing them for afternoon tea the day before the party. obviously the biggest crime in the world . we were due at the party the next day, family lunch at their house the day after that, family lunch at the place we were renting the day after that. plus we were staying for the week after, to see more of them too.

this led to FIL ranting at my step-children, who popped round with a box of chocs and a bottle of wine to apologise (dh and I were still calming/comforting dd1). step children were then 19 and 17, and were physically scared of their grandfather, who shouted a lot of abuse, and slammed the door in their faces. dh asked for an apology, this has never been forthcoming (sorry, just trying to give brief background to where we are now)

fast forward to this year, and PIL have been stirring things with dh's brothers. we don't get invited to BIL's 50th celebration. dh speaks to BIL, who confirms this is the reason behind non-invite.

dh is obviously hurt and upset, but trying to carry on even a fractured relationship with his parents.

so, we are holding a Christening party for our dds. sorry, but there is back story to this too. we originally didn't have dd1 Christened, but had a Naming ceremony (religious differences between dh & I, couldn't decide (amicably) which religion to go for, so hedged bets)

PIL not happy with this, and ranted on at us for years about how dd would be consigned forever to Purgatory if she died un-Christened . honeslty, FIL brought it up in every conversation we had.

dd2 came along, and we were still undecided about what to do, and also in the middle of dd1's ASD diagnosis, etc. lots of shit going on, really. so poor dd2 didn't even get a Naming.

last year, we had them both Christened, privately. dh & i had sorted out our differences, and the opportunity came up while staying with friends - there was a priest staying too (you couldn't make this up ), and he organised a quick service for us - all legit. we told PIL this last year (after the fact - it really was a spur of the moment thing, no-one was there apart form friends we were staying with)

anyway. back to today. we are finally holding a proper Christening party for the girls. It's more than that, really, as we have had a tough few years, but dd1 now settled at school - we fought the LA for that and won. we have been moving around alot to get the best school for dd1, and have recently moved again. life is feelign settled and good, and it's a time for celebration, for us. we decided to have a Christening party, as it would be a good reason to get all of dd2's Godparents together (who all know that they "missed" the Christening, as such, and are happy with this) - they haven't met as a group before.

so, we send an invite around, pretty much saying all of the above.

and PIL reply:

"Hello MrSilverfrog:
We ought to be grateful to have been copied into the many e-mail
addresses of your friends to join the celebration.

It is a great relief to learn that you eventually decided to have your
two girls christened. We have prayed for this to happen for a long
time and would have flown to anywhere to join this baptism.

A belated party for this event at such short notice is not the same
and does not convey the same spirit.

Your loving Parents."

the party is being held in 6 weeks time - a bit short notice, i suppose, but not like it's tomorrow.

dh is fuming. it just feels like such a kick in the teeth, especially following on from not being invited (due to his parents bitching) to the big family even that was his brother's 50th.

so, what would you do?

Silver just pulling your leg re the length of the OP, I would have still been writing it if it had been me :)

A commoner like you --- PIL's actual view OMFG???!!!

Obviously FIL first marriage is just Not Mentioned. Don't you feel a change of that situation coming on!?

I kind of guessed this was only the tip of the iceberg

I can understand where your DH is coming from, but at the same time he has you and the girls to think about....

It's bloody difficult isn't it L(

I wouldn't even bother to say they will always be welcome [to the celebration]. Because they wouldn't be, but that is an aside.

I would say 'The offer is there for you to come along & celebrate this new chapter in dd's lives. I can't help feeling that you not being there is your loss only & as such will leave the final decision to you'

Because, parents or not, they have NO fucking right to do this to you, your dh & your family. They have behaved appallingly, for a seemingly long time & it can't continue.

To those saying they can understand because a Christening was important to them, sorry I don't agree. OK, so maybe it is important, but what is important to the OP is not being told at every available opportunity that her daughters will burn in hell because they aren't Christened! People like that don't actually deserve to be invited to anything to do with anything in my book.

IMO, it has noting to do with the email invite, the non invite to the Christening....it's about control & they don't have any over this situation & they don't like it!

how do I help dh come to terms with the fact that his family are a bunch of narcissistic bullies

You can't, unfortunately. And I am pretty sure he already probably knows it, but it is soul destroying when you realise your parents/family aren't who you thought they were. I stopped talking to mum 18yrs ago & since moving to Oz I have realised that for sisters, brother, dad, etc it is out of sight, out if mind. I have had 1 call from my sister in over 4 yrs. If not for facebook, I'd have no birthday wishes at all. I had nothing when dd2 was born. It hurts, but now I expect nothing & anything more is a bonus.

Your dh will get there. They will do 1 thing that to him, is worse than anything (it won't be, just straw - camel) and he will see it all from freshly opened eyes. I really feel for him. It is deeply unpleasant.

And I would count on them coming, because if they don't, that won't fit into their little game playing. They will come & bitch & moan about it for years afterwards. Afterall, how could they not come? They will just make it known that it is not what 'they' wanted/expected for their gd!

I like the "It's a shame you feel that way and won't come to celebrate with us, but thanks for letting us know in plenty of time" approach, which thumbs the nose at their 'short notice' crap. I wouldn't say anything about them still being welcome.

Dear FIL

Sod you then

The Silverfrogs

What horrible people. And your BIL sounds almost as bad. That would be it for me, I certainly wouldn't want them near my children. It's hard for your DH but ultimately people like this are no great loss. I would almost be tempted to send a note back saying that it's a shame they feel like that as you felt it was the last chance to repair the relationship with them. It might scare them info acting like normal people.

What horrible toxic people they sound. I think you've had lots of good advice on this thread (I love some of the suggested replies, wish I could think of things like this when I need to).

Just wanted to comment by telling you about my experience with my stepdad, who has always been a bully- constantly picks fights with me, apparently just to get a rise.

After a particularly trying family occasion when he didn't have a single nice thing to say to me all day, we told my parents that we wouldn't be seeing them again unless he could find it in himself to be civil. We made it clear that we didn't want to fall out, but that we weren't prepared to put up with any nonsense any more. This happened to coincide with us telling them that I was pregnant.

Have seen him a couple of times since then and it is obvious that the effort to be nice is quite a strain- but he has generally managed it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have found that a blank refusal to accept any nonsense whatsoever seems to have stemmed the flow of nasty sniping. It seems impossible to fight with someone who refuses to engage.

And personally I feel a lot better for it- I'm not caught up in the fight any more, if you see what I mean. I think that the effort of demanding apologies etc. can sometimes be just as bad as fighting.

Chipping - yes, that is their actual view. They are reasonably posh (old family, hint of a title) I came from a council estate, and have no background, and more importantly (in their view, obviously) no status or money.

Would love to bring up FIL first marriage at every available opportunity, bit just can't do it. If I am at theirs, then Good Manners dictates I don't upset my host. If they are at mine, then I don't upset guests (funny how's neither of these apply to them!)

Differentname - yes FIL used to tell us how they couldn't sleep at night because they're thinking of the terrible time the dds would have if they died. Nothing like a cheerful conversation over breakfast, is there?

You are right, it is ALL about control. They don't like it when they can't control the situation.

I half know how dh is feeling re: cutting off family. I last spoke to my father (parents were divorced) when I was 20. He died last year, nearly 15 years later, without us exchanging another word, written or spoken. But that was only part of my family - I still had the rest of my loving, supportive family around me.

Dh is losing his entire immediate family. His parents, his brothers, and nephews/nieces. That must be hard. Especially his brother, they were always the united unit against his parents quite frankly bones behaviour. But brother seems to think, for some reason, he has to choose between dh's ex and me. And has chosen ex.

It is so fucked up, I can't believe (well I can, but ykwim) people behave like this.

Silverten, thank you for sharing that.

I am glad that things seem to be a little easier for you now.

We don't really get caught up with demanding apologies. Dh has done so this time because of the appalling way FIL treated dh's children - defense mechanism. This was the first time PIL had been anything other than kind and patient with any grand child, and dh wants the recognition that this is not acceptable behaviour. He doesn't want the abuse he suffered as a child to transfer to his own children. If they had ranted at dh, then we would still he muddling along in disjointed manner, but they didn't. They involved the children, and that is a line that should not ever have been crossed.

TBH, your husband should (for his own sanity imo) be telling them that if they are not accepting of you & your daughters as a family then he wants nothing to do with them.

It is so sad when adults are crying out for attention/approval from their parents, not getting it & getting bent out of shape about it.

My husband was depressed.
A lot stemming from his childhood & the idea that you talk about nothing "emotional".

Also keeping things from his mum that might upset her or that she might not cope with at the same time as her leaning on him for the emotional support she has never had from his father

We are abroad & they have never visited their only son & only grandchildren.

His mum still mentions the fact that he didn´t go to grammar school

So eventually he has taken the stance that they have lost out by their attitude-he cannot change their disappointment in him, but can stop it bothering him & make sure he doesn´t ever make our children feel like that.

Silverfrog, I agree with everyone who is saying that you can't change other people. You can't help your dh to sort his feelings out, all you can do is be there whilst he does it. My dh is currently estranged from his stepmother following his dad's death and he just has to work this out for himself. I listen and that's it. So you may just have to decide to let dh ride this out.

Re your fil's first marriage, if they are Catholic then they may have got an annulment. Grounds for annulment have included one or both parties being too young to understand the commitment of marriage, or one party going through with the marriage because they felt it was too late to pull out. Even if your fil didn't get an annulment he may well have convinced himself in his mind that his frst marriage didn't exist in God's eyes, as it were.

Unfortunately your bils will have to go their own way, too.

The only thing you can decide on is your own thoughts about the situation. It sounds to me like you're doing pretty well to stick to your guns. I'm all for accepting people for what they are (even if they are monstrous to other people) but that doesn't mean you have to allow them to continually behave badly to you.

"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."(Eph 4:31-32)

We thought one of you may like to read this as we know how important forgiveness is.

Your loving Sonxxx

I like BitofFun's response. (I still like mine, too.)

I really find it hard to imagine how parents like this still seek to control their children. As if being vile and strange and unpleasantly-mentally-ill-seeming is a way to get them back into the fold?!

I suppose a long time ago, adult children might have relied on their family more in an economic sort of way, as in, everyone pulled together because there wasn't a lot of money nor hope of getting any more than you could earn.
Or maybe it was social standing. Maybe it was just better to take a lot of shit than to not be part of a family.

It's hardly like that any more, is it?! It's unbearably sad to lose family, but if your dh told them to take a running jump, he'd not be poverty-stricken or ostracised in the village or anything.

I wonder what the more extended family think of your PILs?

I find the RC annullment policy abhorent.
It would be OK if done once in a blue moon in an arranged marriage of teenagers, or drunk Las Vegas marriage type scenario, but when people get their marriage annulled after being together for years, often having kids and choosing to marry each other it seems totally wrong.
What message does it give to any kids of that marriage to say the marriage never really happened?
Screwed up thinking.

Silverfrog - I have nothing but admiration for the way you are handling this.

You're a stronger better woman than I ever was.

spiritmum - Iknow, I am a catholic too.

I aagree with 2rebecca on this - the whole annulment thing is just ridiculous.

I have no idea whether his first marriage was annulled - I suspect not, otherwise it wouldn't be such a secret

Posie, great quote. they would just quote it back at us re: row last year htough.

Minty. do you mean cousins etc? well, thery mostly think the PIL are bonkers eccentrics. and of course, they usually only see the public front. we had a cousin staying with us last year when the huge row happened over FIL behavior towards mystep children. he was shocked that anyone could behvae like that. He is the son of an estranged ( can't think what happened there) brother, I think, and he was wanting to get back in touch.

PIL were icy at best, bordering on rude, butthen they were on edge due to not knowing how much cousin had been told about the whole thing, so cuoldn't play charming genials with conviction.

Cousin id dd2's godfather - another bone of contention with PIL

I just wish they would all fuck off and leave us alone, and that dh could eb comfortable with that fact.

Sorry I can see this is a long thread and I haven't read all of it, but is it worth getting back to them and saying something along the lines of:

"We're sorry you feel this way. We hope you decide to come as you will be welcome and we will love to see you, however we are not going to participate in your passive aggressive game playing. If you can't be happy for us, come and enjoy the party then we'd rather you didn't bother"

Hi, silverfrog, sorry, reading that back about the annulment does sound like I'm staing the obvious. I'm getting confused as to what faith you're all following! But your fil coudl have convinced himself that what he did is okay 'in God's eyes' even if it isn't in the eyes of the church.

You could understand your pil from the point of view that people who judge others tend to be projecting onto them their beliefs about themselves. So everything that they say about your dh's divorce and your marriage is what they believe deep down about their own. But if course they can never acknowledge that, even to themselves, and so they lash out at you.

Silverfrog, I feel for you. You sound as if you have tried everything and it must be exhausting. You are being lovely and supportive to your DH, but it must be so wearing on you both. As I said before, reinvite them, let it be known to all those involved in this bullying behaviour such a BIL that you are turning the other cheek, moral high ground and all that. You retain your self respect, they have a choice and at the end of the day that is all you can do. Hold your head up high, your DH chose you and you hold onto your lovely family unit. If PIL continue this bullying, confide in THEIR Priest show them up for what they are.

Your ILs sound likq quite unpleasant people. Having said that it does sound like the christening ceremony itself was important to them and you decided to exclude them from it for whatever reason.

Can I ask why you are having a christening party 1yr+ later. Even I can't really see how it might be a christening party so long after the occasion. Usually a christening party is held to provide refreshments for christening guests many of whom will have travelled long distances for the ceremony.

It seems to me that it's an ordinary party and you would like the guests to bring presents for the children. Maybe they are seeing it the same way.

Did The FIL get an annulment? It's a question worth asking him, at a salient point when he is being his usual vile self.

Well worth it, IMO.

One of my relatives arranged an annulment for his son, so the son could remarry. I'm sure the son didn't give a shit. The son's ex-wife fought it tooth and nail, though she was quite happy with the divorce etc. Can't say I blamed her at all. No kids involved in this one thank goodness, but I was told if there had been then there would have been no grounds for annulment and 'Poor X' couldn't have married again oh dear. Yes he could, and probably would. It was his dad who would have had problems - though in most other ways he's a lovely old chap.

Catholic annulment is really quite ridiculous, and if it must exist should be limited to the times when there are real and proper grounds, not bandied about loosely like it seems to be nowadays. Certainly not allowed when children are involved.

But then, the Catholic church will do almost anything to hang on to the flock they still have, whether that means making themselves ridiculous in the eyes of everyone else or not (well, I suppose they already are anyway. They do take a bloke in a frock rather over-seriously.)

spiritmum - I didn't mean that . I know it's a nightmare keping up with what church we are all with. I am sure that is exactly what FIl has done (convincing himself it is right in God's eyes, etc) - still doesn't mean he isn't a mean-spirited hypocritical old git, thoguh

freespiritedgirl, we didn't exclude them form the christening ceremony. not in the way you mean. no-one was there. it was held on the spur of the moment (that sounds so wrong, and I don't mean we flippantly decided to get the girls Christened). literally, we were sitting round after dinner chatting with friends, dh took a phonecall from his parents. when he came back, I said something like "so, are the girls still going to burn in Hell?" (FIL was mentioning it at every opportunity), and so the conversation came out form there - we talked to our (very good) friends, and the priest who was also a guest that weekend. and when we had talked it all through (absolutely no pressure form the priest) and come to our conclusion - that, having had time to talk it through, we both thought that christening the girls (either catholic or CofE) was more important than not doing it, and we were both happy to concede (wrong word) to the others' faith (there really isn't that much of a big deal anyway now, between the two). and the priest said, well why don't we do it in the morning? so we did.

no time for invites, nothing.

just a very private ceremony, with us, and some very close friends (who are, actually, very important to both of us, introduced us, adn have been instrumental in large parts of both our lives - very fitting it was there, imo)

so, PIL weren't excluded at all. and certainly didn't mention they felt that way when we told them where, how and why the girls had been Christened.

I have explained a few times why we are having the christening party so long after the event - lots of other bits of life caught up with us rather.

as for calling it a christening party so the girls get presents? hahahahahahahhahahaahahhahahaha

yes.

we want to cause all this upset so that they get some silver teaspoons and a bible (both of which they already own anyway

honestly.

Jux - I really can't bring myself to make PIl feel that uncomfortable, tbh. It's none of my business what FIL did wrt his first marriage (and he is clearly uncomfortable talking about it) I get the feeling if we did bring it up (which would only serve to deepen the row) he woudl come out with some crap like "oh well, no children were involved, so it doesn't count" or some such rot.

I agree with whoever it was who said that sometimes, people take out on others what their own deepseated issues with themselves are. crap for hte ones having it taken out on them, though.

I completely understand your reasoning regarding how the Christening came about in the first place, and how lovely to have shared that with true friends. imo your PIL are jealous as well as bonkers and taking it out on you. Ignore them in the sense of stop approaching them, rather than not responding to civil contact from them, and then maybe over time that will get to them (as they are probably vain) and they will make overtures to your DH. If you haven't done this yet then maybe it worth considering as a strategy? Best wishes.