because judging by the reaction of the old 'dears' around me, I fear that maybe I am ...

[plonker]

Ok, so let me set the scene

Me and the 3 dc shopping in ...no, I'm not telling you where in case it clouds judgement

We are at the end of the 'big' shop and have loaded the shopping on the belt. Dd's have some sweeties (unopened btw, just clarifying) and have sat down on the seats opposite the till whilst I load the shopping.

Dd2 (7yo) and dd3 (3yo) have an, ahem, altercation, resulting in my angelic 3yo pinching her sister whilst mt equally angelic 7yo boots her in the shins in retaliation. Juuuust your typical shopping trip

Anyway, I took the sweets straight off the girls (obviously) whilst they protested their innocence. They were told quite clearly that fighting children do not deserve treats. The children apologised after a few minutes and apologised to each other giving each other a hug. All going well, yes?

So (and here is the part where I think I must have committed some huge faux pas), I accepted the girls' apologies and gave them back their sweets

Dear me, the tutting that ensued from an elderly couple behind me because that "never happened in their day ...naughty children shouldn't get rewards ..."

Was it really so bad to give the girls the sweets?

Was I unreasonable?

Go on, give it to me, I can take it

My kids are preschoolers (one is shortly starting school)

What do you say to them when they say, but 'I don't want sandwiches first, I just want cake'

You dont really have to say much at all - in those situations, the best discussion or negotiation, the better. A simple "no, we are having sandwiches" usually suffices - if they ask why, you could give a bit of basic nutritional reason if you wanted to - "because you want to grow big and strong" or if they are older, "because you'll get hungry later if you just have cake, trust me, you'll crash and burn!" or some such.

"(and you don't want them to just have cake either - you want them to eat something more nutricious)"

If you dont want them to have cake at all, for some reason, then dont have it in, hide it, or even better, scoff it yourself
If you do have cupboards full of crisps, biscuits, cakes, chocolate and sweets (I'm sure you dont but you know) then of course this kind of approach might fall on its ass.

Having said that, my kids have never actually asked for cake for lunch, they have said they want cake though - usually because they can see it somewhere. The last time it happened was when we were having friends over at 2:30 for tea and cake and playing. So I said "we are having cake later, when our friends get here" and we sat and had lunch. After lunch, my son asked again - and I said "when your friends get here!" and that was it.

"As they get older how do you stop them just wanting the stuff that is 'nice'? I know what you said about them often choosing fruit if it's there, but it's not always like that...
"

You can't! There is no foolproof answer, and its not about control anyway. How do you stop yourself just wanting the stuff that is just nice? You cant! You either want it or you dont! How many young adults whack on a stone when they move out of home for the first time and realise they can have takeaway every night if they want to? Lots!

What you are doing really, is bringing them up in an environment where those things exist, and are enjoyed in moderation without guilt, not tied to behaviour or punishment. So in theory, they are less likely to eat 10 chocolate bars when they break up with their boyfriend, or starve themselves down to skin and bone when their parents split up, or less extreme variants, as well as having the skills to deal with their emotions in other ways, as well as having learned properly and possibly earlier than their peers why certain behaviours are not acceptable or why its good to clear up your toys.

They might still learn to comfort eat, or punish themselves with deprivation, or end up on the yo-yo dieting merry go round - but you will know it wasn't because of you.

A lot of adult people wouldn't have that 2nd chocolate bar if they didn't feel so damn guilty for eating the first. Maybe some of them wouldn't binge drink on the weekend after a hard week. Or maybe they would! But I can't help thinking you'd be at least minimising the likelihood or severity of those behaviours surfacing.

But its almost making it sound more "worthy" and sanctimonious than it is - its really a very simple case of dont use food as punishment or reward, dont comfort or alleviate boredom with food, and dont label foods as good or bad but enjoy a variety of different foods in moderation to satisfy your appetite. Anything that goes wrong despite that attitude in the home was going to happen anyway.

Sloany - it's definitely easier with pre-schoolers - they get bigger, more opinionated and far harder to fob off!! Sadly.

I agree though, we can only do our best and hope it was enough.

I'm sure it is easier with pre-schoolers.

But you never have to bring behaviour into it, no matter how much they might pester, or argue, or question. At some point it is not only necessary but sensible to bring the nutritional aspect of the food into the discussion - if they dont learn that at home, they'll learn it at school, you may as well teach it how you want it taught.

However, regardless of the age of your children, an argument is a 2 way thing, you dont have to partake, and genuine questions can be answered truthfully without placing too much emphasis on "good" and "bad" but more on "moderation". In fact, this bit which is the actual teaching bit, would be easier as they get older (whether or not they accept it - they at least understand it, you can at least debate it constructively)

I find a lot of the time I just agree with my child. If he says "Mummy can I please have some sweets" and for some reason I either dont have any or dont want him to, I just say no. If he goes on a bit and says "but I want some they are yummy" I just say "I know, I want some too...yum. I love sweets!" and then we still dont have any. There's no conflict, yet.

I know it must get harder when they get older to the extent that they have easy access to every cupboard and tin and top shelf of fridge and all that - but if its a real problem, its really a lot easier to buy them bit by bit than as part of the weekly shop. Then its gone and that's that and they have to default to the next most appetising snack that they deem acceptable. Hell, I'm 34 and that's what I do when I've got nothing nice in...what's nearly as nice as chocolate? Oh here's an old wrinkled satchet of Cadbury Hi-lites in the drinks cupboard, lets give that a go. Etc.

If you've got full-on teenagers with their own pocket money and the ability to walk to the shop etc, you've got to let it go a bit by that point (unless they have a real weight problem I suppose). By then you'd have had the opportunity to educate them about food choices and what each choice can mean, and really they have to want to make that choice off their own back or you are fighting a losing battle anyway.

But even then, at least they are eating it simply because it tastes nice and hopefully not self medicating or buryig their teenage angst in chocolate - that's the idea. I'll let you know!

Sloany, it sounds like you are tying yourself in knots in attempt to not say things which you know are true. You clearly think that some food is good and some not so good, because you limit the amounts of sweet food in the house. In fact, you sound like you are quite afraid of having the temptation of 'bad food' around. We tend to have cake and biscuits around because I like baking and ds generally gets a slice of cake in his morning tea lunchbox. But he would like it all day so I have to say no at other times. I don't see why telling a child that some food is not good to eat a lot of and other food is fine should cause guilt about food. I don't even think using it as incentive, just as I might use an outing, a matchbox car or any other nice and limited thing as an incentive should create feelings of worth and deserving around food. I don't think I have any food issues. I enjoy eating sweet food and healthy food and I don't feel guilty for eating either - I just do so in different quantities.

YANBU. Good behaviour = return of treat.

Backsniping within earshot = bad behaviour! Hope you took the elders' sweeties off them

Oops, just noticed the topic has changed direction. All the kids I know, who were brought up in "Bad Food / Good Food" households, have now got eating disorders. Just saying.

Trying to leave:

"Sloany, it sounds like you are tying yourself in knots in attempt to not say things which you know are true".

Not at all - I spend very little time thinking about or talking about food with my kids other than when we are shopping for it or cooking it. The examples given above were answering questions that ChippingIn had posed to me and most have never even occured. We just prepare the food and eat it. Its really, really simple. There is nothing more to food than fuel that is prepared and presented, and enjoyed together as a family or with friends, whether it is cake or whether it is salad. There is nothing more to it than that. Answering lots of questions about how I'd handle or deal with different hypothetical scenarios may make it sound more complicated than it is, probaby. Most of these scenarios have never even occured in my house, but if they did, that's probably how I would handle them, if they were an issue at the time.

"You clearly think that some food is good and some not so good, because you limit the amounts of sweet food in the house. In fact, you sound like you are quite afraid of having the temptation of 'bad food' around".

Its not really that - but we genuinely dont eat that much of it, as we have so many other things we want to eat as well - if I were to have a cupboard full of cakes and biscuits, they would go stale. Whilst I do a weekly shop as well, I like to buy a lot of our "day to day" food on the day, fresh and local, on a whim, and in small quantities. I no more have a fridge full of various fruit and vegetables than I do a cupboard full of different cakes and biscuits. Its just not how I operate. Of course I am tempted sometimes if I am hungry and there is cake around - I'm human! But I am not so weak willed that I can't withstand temptation - if I want it, I have it, I just dont have more later or the next day.

I do genuinely believe if you have children that you dont want to be eating certain things all the time and they have a bit of a taste for it and know its there, its easier if its not there. Chippingin was asking me how I'd deal with it if they kept asking for certain things and I didn't want them to have it. It barely ever arises to be honest simply because I buy all our food a bit at a time, and we simply run out of these things, so there is no conflict or argument to be had.

"We tend to have cake and biscuits around because I like baking and ds generally gets a slice of cake in his morning tea lunchbox. But he would like it all day so I have to say no at other times. I don't see why telling a child that some food is not good to eat a lot of and other food is fine should cause guilt about food. I don't even think using it as incentive, just as I might use an outing, a matchbox car or any other nice and limited thing as an incentive should create feelings of worth and deserving around food. I don't think I have any food issues. I enjoy eating sweet food and healthy food and I don't feel guilty for eating either - I just do so in different quantities"

That's great then - keep doing what you are doing if its working for you!

Sloany - sorry, should have known not to have a discussion in AIBU as it will always get picked apart and taken out of context.

Tryingtoleave - anything you have a discusion about seems 'bigger' than it actually is on a day to day basis. I could rattle on for hours about say, being a vegetarian and my reasons, what I do to check food is safe to eat etc - it doesn't mean I actively think about it on a daily basis iyswim.

No problem ChippingIn, its been fun discussing it, but what you say is true!