in thinking that some dc are just nasty little shits?

[bitofadrama]

so fed up of both dd's coming home in tears after being told that they are not allowed to play at the local park or "kate" has told every other child in the street that they are not allowed to play with "those freaks" (my dd's)

is it really unreasonable to want to but in or is it best to let them learn how to fight there own battles (6&8)

honestly these holidays have been hell with the feral little brats i have to live near.

Sorry meant to qualify the 'hierarchy' statement by saying ds wouldn't accept this from his own classmates but accepts it from an older child .

yanbu
it is horrid when your kids are picked on,

Yanbu.

What also shocks me is how calculating and sophisticated some forms of bullying can be in sometimes quite young children.

Totally agree with the OP.

Valhalla, I know you do a lot of work for/with dogs- am I right in thinking that you subscribe to the 'There are no bad dogs, just bad owners' school of thought?

If so, how is it different for children? Sorry to pick out your post, am genuinely curious...

tethers, I was just going to say something along those lines. Most children are not evil by nature, but how they are raised shapes their behaviour.
I'm amazed by how some parents tolerate or actively encourage antisocial behaviour in their children, and how few other adults step in to point out that it's not OK.
Yes, it would be lovely if they were born with an understanding of how civilised and kind people should behave, but they aren't and so it has to be taught.

Sorry to state the obvious, children and dogs are totally different!

Children have many different influences on their behave, friends for example. The best behaved kids sometimes make bad choices.

Surely you teach children about good and bad choices? A dog is just trained to obey?

Star, shall i send you a copy of the one size fits all instruction manual on raising children

claw3, I'm not suggesting that parents are the only influence on a child; I am using the dog analogy to illustrate that children are not inherently 'little shits' in the same way that dogs are apparently not evil but conditioned by their owners. Surely if we can afford this understanding to dogs, we can afford it to children?

Extraneous factors shape the child.

Tether, oh right, i think we are saying the same thing in a round about way!

Extraneous factors do shape a child. Are parents to blame for their child's behaviour, is far too black and white!

YANBU. Some kids are little shits, end of story.

My mate's kid for one; has had a lovely upbringing, sibling is lovely, but she is just not a pleasant child. It's not always about the upbringing IMO.

Does it matter why a child behaves in a really awful way to their peers?
In a "big society" sense it does - but when you are the parent of the child being bullied how does the knowledge that no child is born bad change aything?
It doesn't lessen the effects of the bullying, does it?
I genuinely dont get the point thats being made.

For a start I think that parents are responsible for teaching their DCs socially acceptable behaviour.

Children (like all people) have different personalities. Stands to reason that some children will be nicer than others.

That said, it is the parents job to make sure that if their DC exhibit the less desirable personality traits, they call a halt to this before said DC start bullying other nicer children

Yabu re your thread title which makes me feel very itchy.
Yanbu to be upset on your dd's behalf

some kids are nasty little shits and probably have nasty shit parents as well. That's life. When they are about 13 they'll have some babies of their own who won't be parented properly if at all and will grow to be nasty little shits too. That's life.
Feel so sorry for your dd's

"Valhalla, I know you do a lot of work for/with dogs- am I right in thinking that you subscribe to the 'There are no bad dogs, just bad owners' school of thought?

If so, how is it different for children? Sorry to pick out your post, am genuinely curious..."

Tethersend and Goblinchild, I love the way the attitude on MN changes from "It's only a dog!", "It's not as if it's a child!", and so on, to a direct comparison between the two to suit the circumstances! :o

Erm... how about because the two have different emotional and intellectual capabilities, different levels of choice, a different cognitive function...

And frankly, I don't care WHY certain children are little shits when they are spitting in my DDs face, calling her a ginger cunt, stealing and smashing up her mobile, trashing her bike, chasing her up the road... I just know that they ARE little shits.

YANBU - I agree with cupcakes' comment above. As a senior sec teacher, I've seen thousands of kids over the years who know exactly how to pull the wool over their parents' eyes despite blatant evidence of their cruel and nasty activities. The same kids are usually highly skilful at bullying & causing major hassles at school, but staying under the radar and ensuring that others take the blame, they are extremely co-operative in class so that teacher perceives them well, but sooo crafty. I'd only put the figure of genuinely horrible ones at 1% though. Sometimes, the more we manage to catch them & discipline them for hurting others, the worse it makes them behave, always in a covert way. Needless to say, we often get huge grief from yhe parents who refuse to believe any ill of their DC.

I sometimes find it useful to say to DSS's that other children can be unkind because they are sad about other things in their lives. Or because they have not been lucky enough to have been taught how to behave nicely to other children. Or because they are jealous that you seem happy and to have an easier life than them.

I genuinely believe that this is the case, and while it's not excusing the other child's behaviour it is offering a possible explanation. This hopefully makes DSS's realise that they are not responsible for being today's 'victim'.

Could you invite Kate in to play so you can keep an eye on them for a while? I can see why you wouldnt want to, but it does give your DDs a bit of protection.

Interesting, Valhalla.

"Tethersend and Goblinchild, I love the way the attitude on MN changes from "It's only a dog!", "It's not as if it's a child!", and so on, to a direct comparison between the two to suit the circumstances!

Erm... how about because the two have different emotional and intellectual capabilities, different levels of choice, a different cognitive function... "

They do indeed. Children are far more capable of all the above mentioned capabilities.

Yet you afford them less understanding than you do dogs. That's the point I was making.

capable of capabilites?

Kerrist.

Do I afford chikldren less understanding than dogs? Yes I do I suppose, tethersend. I've seen far worse behaviour from children than I ever have experienced with dogs too.

Plus, dogs don't answer back. :o

And, given that children are far more capable of the above-mentioned functions and reasoning, there's all the more reason for them to know better AFAIAC.

Reasoning and reason?

Kerrist! You've got me at it now, TE! :o

Well said vallhala.

and op there is nothing wrong with the title, there are a lot of nasty little shits about, its not necessarily picked up off the parents.

they also pick it up from some of there peers, nowadays it looks like they have to be nasty just to fit into these stupid nasty gangs.