To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

[Housewife2010]

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

Dave "I went to Eton but am middle-class" Cameron may consider himself middle class, but I really don't think he can lump Samantha into the middle-class bucket...

From wikipedia...

"Cameron is the eldest daughter of Sir Reginald Adrian Berkeley Sheffield, 8th Baronet[5] (a landowner and a descendant of King Charles II of England) and his first wife Annabel Lucy Veronica Jones. Samantha's parents married on 11 November 1969 and had two daughters, Samantha and Emily (born 1973),[6] and divorced in 1974. Her mother has been married to William Astor, 4th Viscount Astor, a Minister in John Major's government, since 14 January 1976, and is now styled as Viscountess Astor. The couple's children are: Flora Katherine (born 1976), William Waldorf (born 1979) and James Jacob (born 1981).[7]

Samantha grew up on the 300 acre (121 hectare) estate of Normanby Hall,[8] five miles (8 km) north of Scunthorpe in North Lincolnshire. Her family also owns a large Yorkshire estate called Sutton Park."

coraltoes - I think the baby massage classes are important for attracting new parents to the centres, where they can find support for all sorts of issues. And probably help babies sleep.

I have a feeling that there was an unspoken agenda at my SS Centre of encouraging parents to play with their babies - which may sound obvious to most of us but may not be so to people who grew up with less than ideal parents, such as those who were in care, for instance.

What was great about the SS Centre near me when ds was a baby was that it attracted all sorts of families from all sorts of backgrounds who wouldn't normally mix with each other. The SAHM with a husband who works in the City might live on the next street to the recent immigrant from Bangladesh would didn't speak very good English and the professional woman on maternity leave might live on the next street to the shop assistant, but they don't normally get into much conversation.

At baby massage classes, we were all on the same footing and all dealing with the same issues. I'm sure it did something for social cohesion and showing us all that people who are much richer or poorer than you are still just people, not all benefits cheats or all nobs who don't have a clue.

To be fair moondog, as an SLT like you I used to be very about middle class families using SS services.. however, since I had my own baby and was faced with total isolation within my community, I can see that a lot of mums need support regardless of background and I have been one of them.

My CC group is very mixed in terms of social class and this is no bad thing. The idea that everyone from a lower socioeconomic background is intimidated by the "middle classes" who use the CC services is an interesting one, given that these "sharp elbowed middle classes" consist, at least in my CC, of public sector workers who are living in the same estate as all the 'needy' and 'disadvantaged' people Dave is worried about.

I was really, really glad to meet my neighbours - and so pleased when we started to share our baby stuff and be open and relaxed with one another. A year ago we would have warily passed on another on the street. I would be happy to pay to go to my CC group and in fact, most services in ours are on a sliding scale basis e.g. no charge if you're on benefits but a charge if you're not.

I can't see how ghettoization helps anyone. I think it's quite positive that there are a greater range of services available to the whole community, reduces stigma. I do agree with the money going to services that represent genuine need, but closing doors to anyone with an income over 21K seems a shame.

I too am absolutely sure that SS centres help with social cohesion and baby massage has been proven to help with babies immune systems.

ah thanks edam, well explained. So it works as an entry point to the "system" for ladies...i just wonder could the same be achieved (ie getting people through the door)without having to pay for someone to teach it...I'm not saying i'm anti the lessons, just if they are cutting, surely better to cut the less crucial lessons and maintain the important BF suport, and somewhere for mums to meet?

Arses, I have had extensive involvement in SS services, both as a director for many years (in my own time) and working in several set-ups.

I have no issue with the idea of people mixing across class and culture and overcoming the crushing isolation that being a parent of a new baby can bring. However, I do not believe it is tenable in the current political climate to continue offering services such as baby massage to people who quite clearly have plenty of money to buy these services.

Do what you like-Hopi ear candling, primal screaming, folk dancing, whatever. Just don't start kicking and screaming when it is something you have to pay for as opposed to get handed over on a plate.

Nas, is this an opinion or a fact?

'too am absolutely sure that SS centres help with social cohesion and baby massage has been proven to help with babies immune systems.'

If it's an opinion, then here's one of mine; all jet skiis should be banned.

If it's a fact then I'd like a reference please.

Haven't read the whole thread but I have always wondered about who exactly benefits from SS.

When my first was born we lived in a part of London where £1 million loft apartments nestled between areas of extreme social deprivation.

Our SS centre was fantastic : I, along with many friends, partcipated in baby signing, massage classes and food tasting sessions. There were nursery and advice sessions available a toy library and music classes.

It was all brand new with free coffee and biscuits available.

I could have (and would have if asked) paid for those sessions and judging by the number of Q7's, XC90's and Tourans in the carpark so could everyone else in attendance.

The fact is cuts have to start somewhere. I have absolutely no problem with people who can pay for services doing so. I am suprosed anyone feels differently.

Moondog, how do you forge community links, though? I came to mat leave from the position of working crazy hours in a community clinic about 40 miles from where I live. Adjusting to life with a new baby was enough of a shock without undertaking setting up a new baby group.

Funnily enough, I was very intimidated by the addresses of those on the NCT members list when I contacted them ahead of maternity. There's a street of massive houses (in the 1-2 million bracket) on the edge of our area and the members all lived there. I couldn't imagine inviting anyone from a house like that to my 2-bed council house. I also couldn't really manage any housework when I first had my baby, so in general, inviting people to my home was out..

I tried some local Church run P&T groups but found them very difficult as they seemed so established and I felt like a total outsider. All the faces were white at everything I went to, no one seemed to talk..

The reality is I live in a 2-bed house on a council estate and there's a CC on the corner. The fact that we paid £100K for the house does not make us wealthy; the fact that I am educated does not make one squit of difference to the fact that my son will go to school with all the babies and kids from my estate. Why should my son be marked apart from his peers and the fact we are homeowners advertised to the whole neighbourhood as if we were somehow 'better' than them because of income? We don't think that, our lifestyles are similar.. if my council tenant neighbour says to me, 'want to come to Stay and Play at the CC' and I have to say 'Sorry, I can't, I earn too much', how does that help our society? I am happy to pay, to contribute etc.. but I don't think that segregating the non-working from their neighbours is a sensible solution for a more socially-cohesive society.

Sorry, cross post there moondog. People not on benefits paid market rates for Baby Massage in ours: that's a solution I'm happy with.

@BarmeyArmy I'm not lumping myself in with people on benefits and minimum wage. Those are the working poor and underclass. I believe that most of the people now being called MC would have been called WC 20 years ago.

The aspirations of the average WC are exactly the same as the average MC. Somewhere down the line the MC has supposedly swelled to include nearly everyone who has a job and the 20 or so people left in the WC category have found themselves lumped in with the underclass. Working class is not the same as being on benefits and minimum wage.

Most of the people being told they are like Dave and Sam and are therefore not entitled to SS should be entitled because they are not on a so-called MC wage and have nothing in common with the Dave 'I'm just like you' Cameron.

Quite.
Pay if you have the cash.
Don't if you haven't.
But I'll guarantee you that without the MC types, the whole SS thing will fold, because it is the MC who use them predominantly.

I have spent years on various committees and working groups discussing the myriad ways in which we can 'engage' lower socio-economic groups in activities which would benefit them and their children.

In the words of one of my colleagues 'The only courses we ever run which are full of the people we want to attract are those on how to claim more benefits.'

(Incidentally, these were issues Skinner was wrestling with years ago (just read 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity' on this very subject) and an area which ABA academics like Miltenberger are looking at very closely. it's a fascinating manifestation of BA-how to motivate targetted audiences to get involved in things that would benefit them.)

O don't have an issue with the pay if you can idea, at all.

But suspect i'd be shoviong in whatever pennies I had left over that week and other,, better off people would be walking out making comments about their taxes- it always happens at anything where you can donate, either in time or cash, IMO.

I'll happily pay what I can for quality services- i;d pay for ds3's SNU summer club if there was a way (but not for ds3's which seems to be along the lies of 'sofa's there, play on your dsi and keep quiet')

A compulsory pay scheme means some people find it ahrd to access though. I remember when DH and I were both working but battling a mortgage after DH had been off ill for a bit (trying to make up the gap) that I had to stop the toddler group at £1 a week.

Given th new lower limit on TC;s I'd suggest tax credit limits may be appropirate rather than a really low limit. But then people who have worked ahrd wouls (somewhat undersatandably?) say that theya re losing everything in one huge go.

Maybe middle class - one salary in 40% tax bracket, and rich (like DC) one salary in 50% tax bracket???? But actually I don't think it can be done by income?

So once again all people on council estates are lumped together ..we all just want to claim benefits,have no aspirations and couldn't give a shit about our kids ..well hello, the ss centre on my council estate is very well used ,by all sorts of people from the estate.. .maybe you should try living on one instead of reading studies and books about us ..we ain't all vicky pollard types..

slightly diverging off topic, but it's just struck me that I wasted £200/month on a private nursery to try and improve DS's language related SN (nursery was not v. good, in hindsight), but didn't pay for SureStart, which did provide some useful help (potted Hanen course, stay and play group run by an experienced retired teacher, which was the only M & T I could face taking DS to regularly). I feel positively queasy recalling that!

How will they ensure this?

Ask for your bank statement when you turn up with your child????

Absolutely SWC

Be far better to extend the scope of surestar, brting in the community lessons in computers and support groups and all that, make them pay a bit for their keep through room rental and stop the 9-5 set up.

pay for your drinks, do a bit of fundraising for anything if you don't want to pay.

but for gawds sake keep them accessible!

I would think having a broad mix of people using these centres is a good thing, as edam said.

I've been to baby massage classes where they pass a cup round during the class, so you can put in what you can - everyone's involved in the class and not looking at what others are putting in the cup. I sometimes put nothing in one week and a bit extra another when I had the cash.

I work in theatre, and we have pay what you can nights - some pay a penny others pay way over the odds -generally we take more on those nights than on normal nights!

It's amazing that there's actually no shame on here - I accept and applaud middle-class sharp-elbowness (I'd wager I'm more sharp-elbowed than most!)...but I loathe people getting paid to do something that, with a bit of economising here and there, they could otherwise afford.

Reminds me of the piss-take phoneathon sketch that Smith and Jones did years ago - seeking to raise money for those that are nearly wealthy, just not quite wealthy enough.

The ones that can afford to get their kiddies into minor public schools but need a leg up to be able to afford those in the big league.

The sketch ended with Griff Rhys Jones to camera, dead-pan face and earnest pleading, "Do you realise that without your help, there are over 20,000 children that will only be able to go on one skiing holiday this year...".

Save the SS for those on benefits; the rest of us can economise and pay our own way.

Can I just say Barmy that your posts shine out with a logic and intelligence that at times is sadly amiss on this site?

I really enjoy them.

This is it isn;t it? There's nothing else about to access.

And when I tried to set something up I couldn't get a venue. Not without paying anyway, and I can't afford to fund the whole thing myself. Which would ahve been the commitmengnt I was making in order to secure a regular booking.

Whereas if we had a SS centre I could ring up and try and arrnage something within an exisitng venue. And therefore this Transitional Class (council estate parents, working class roots and icnome but degree and high aspirations) could actually take some state funding off their hands.

in my local area, the small businesses (usually mothers working part time self-employed) providing this sort of service (baby massage, baby music etc) are going out of business

their customers are all at surestart, getting services they previously paid for, for free

surestart don't employ these local businesswomen, they train their own staff in house and it is very much a closed shop, IME