To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

[Housewife2010]

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

We used to hire in lcoal people

So back to the look at the ones that work and use their model theme then?

Barmy, I hardly think the cost of a baby massage class equates to education at one of the elite public schools.

How would you ensure that MC parents pay while parents in need get the services? If you bar all MC parents, you are losing the social cohesion AND turning children's centres into ghettos.

What's more, the need for some support with children isn't confined to the poor. Plenty of middle class people are sometimes less than ideal parents and could do with some help and guidance. Children don't choose their parents - the sort of parenting classes available at children's centres are just as helpful to the offspring of parents who can pay for private education or have sharp enough elbows to get their kids into sought-after state schools.

Oddly enough when Dave was on here seeking election he didn't say 'btw, please vote for me, I'm going to cut free nursery milk/children's centres/tax credits/support for victims of domestic violence'. He has no mandate for this sort of thing. (Well, he hasn't got much of a mandate in the first place, just slightly more than anyone else. And his coalition partners certainly don't have a mandate at all.)

sancti yes i would agree with that

When the election threads were going, every time anyone said ooh a cut to tax credits or surestart we were called paranoid.

Hmph.

Hm! My feeling is that unless they accessible to all they will quickly become stigmatised and not wanted. It's the fact that they are so inclusive which means they are not seen as any threat or problem.

Our local Children's Centre is brilliant and offers all kinds of support for low income families (I work in an area of deprivation). I would be sad to see it narrowed to only the low income families - the difficult families I work with often accept it because it is open to anyone and there is no shame or stigma attached to its use.

I find our local surestart centre difficult to access because I work. There is frankly nothing for me and I am paying tax for all these day at home mums to have their free music classes.

When I was on maternity leave I found many of the services difficult to access. For example a baby massage class which was 2.30pm to 3.30pm and I had the school pick up.

I would like to keep surestart, but services and classes to be reviewed. What is useful and what is a frill?

When SureStart was Surestart it was targetted. In this area for instance you had a reach of 800 children under 4 - all those in the highest deprivation wards. There was a lot of home visiting, as well as managing to get some of them to the centres.

Then they became Childrens Centres. They extended their reach - that 800 now grew to 3500 and included those in the whole of the town area. Now services are predominantly filled by those in the more affluent areas. This means that although the services are used, they are used by the most needy - these people now avoid the centres mostly, unless there are specific groups on for those on low income.

The work and difference the centres near us made in the 5 years of Surestart were huge - with smoking, pregnancies, breastfeeding, employment. Now those people are missing out because it covers a wider area (on the same number of staff I will add) and they feel alientated again.

I for one would be happy to see Childrens Centres go, and only the original SureStart areas remain, with more targetted work.

that should say they arent* used by the most needy

The children's centrre they built enar Mum hs been changed to a neighbourhgood centre

As well as children's services they ahve lunchclubs for teh odler residents, computer lessons and benefits advice, a pahrmacy and visitng dentist.

So very much better

I think they should be for all, but those on high incomes should pay the full market rate for the services provided.

Perhaps there should be 3 prices - free, subsidised (for those getting tax credits) and full cost. You could just get a surestart membership card if you were entitled to free or subsidised activities so the staff knew how much you had to pay.

TBH- all sorts use our childrens' centre. Noone puts anyone else off. This summer they've had nature sessions in ours. DD has loved looking for bugs. All sorts turn up.

So op; yanbu.

can i just say that 'middle class' people can have real parenting needs too (sorry if this has already been said). I joined a surestart after the birth of DC£ after having crippling PND with my 2 other children. I really believe being part of such a sopportive organisation, meeting new people etc etc is what made sure i didn't get PND again and was able to BF for nearly a year instead of giving up before 1mth as with the prev 2 DC's. Yes, the centre had many people who would be classed as middle class, but it did also have many people from the local 'deprived' spots, and it was a good way to integrate and mix. I would be very sad if i was no longer allowed to attend the centre

chesy already said but worthy of being repeated frankly

I hope you feel better now

I don't honestly think that the under privileged or whatever you want to call them are intimidated by the Middle Classes ,why would they be?

Thanks santi I did think it may have been said.thankfully I didn't get PND with DC3 at all and had a really positive experience, which helped us all as a family. Don't think this would have been the case if I hadn't gone to surestart as I know that even though I am classed as 'middle class' I could not have afforded to pay for massage classes etc. Plus, i really like making friends with local people and they are friendships i have kept since we first tsarted going 3 years ago. Income or class did not come into it when it came to making friends at surestart (or in any context), I am glad to say

If this service is made unaccessable to middle earners/classes then surely the people that can attend will feel stigmatised and thus not attend anyway

moondog, I feel you misintepreted my post re my children missing out because i work ft and cannot afford activities. My point was why should other children, whose parents do not work, get this but not mine?

I am a ?middle earner and seem to get shafted from all sides. Not a sense of entitlement, genuine curioristy as to why the unemployeds children will get better opportunities than mine. It seems unjust and unfair. If I could afford the activities then I would pay.

surestart was surely not set up to help MC mums who, on the whole, are not those in the most need of help?

our SS centre is in a crap councilly area, and therefore is mostly used by the people it should be used by. I have my antenatal appts there, but that's it...(much better place than Drs surgery IMO)..however there does appear to b under-utilisation, i have yet to see it busy.

lthough DC is right in theory, i don't see how in practice you can run open events, courses and services whilst excluding on an income-basis (which surely would make them harder to get into/onto, which would discourage the people that need them more)

so IMo more a case of good point Dave, but how is this to be done?

Haven't read all of thread but I remember that when SureStart began and was targetted at deprived areas the first Govt. report highlighted the fact that they were being used by the MC and not the target families. Labour still expanded them.

The solution surely is to charge those who can pay and have a reduction for those on low incomes, and free for those on benefits. Yes I know that might rely on people being honest about their family income bracket, but people generally don't rip off these kinds of things, you know. If there is the will this could be done.

Incidentally our hv provides baby massage classes free of charge.

I think sure start has done some real good, but in this area there now are no groups other than those run by sure start.Gone are the toddler groups run in church halls etc.It would be nice to see communities setting up their own groups again. That said, it would be very sad to see an end to sure start(I am sure DC wouldnt agree)

Not a sense of entitlement, genuine curioristy as to why the unemployeds children will get better opportunities than mine.

because they don't.

you provde better opportunities in a whole plethora of other ways....(or, more accurately, the average Middle income home provides better opportunities than the average lower income home) ..Surestart is intended to redress the balance (or attempt to)

I've never seen David C down my local SureStart centre but I have seen an awful lot of women who have n't had a full nights sleep for months, have got pnd/cracked nipples/can't sit down or just need to be in public so that they don't overreact to a miserable, whining toddler. They say it takes a village to raise a child and are local centre has been fantastic in supporting our whole town which includes the children of doctors, plasteres, barmen, university reserchers and farmers.

Some can even spell.

YABU

they are a service targeted at lower income families. if they are only being used my middle class families, well its not working is it?

start a playgroup yourself, church hall etc

Sancti, turning them into neighbourhood centres with stuff on for elderly people as well as families, and pharamcies and so on sounds very sensible. Unfortunately I suspect neighbourhood centres aren't going to escape spending cuts either.

It's all very well for people to say 'those who can pay should' but social cohesion is important ? and a lack of it damages society and the economy.

Jeez, surely politics should be about at least pretending you want to make the world a little bit better...

Moondog - likewise.