To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

[Housewife2010]

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

jenniferturkington - I don't know that "Every Child Matters" is something I would subscribe to anyway. It's a vacuous statement of the sort that local authorities plaster all over their "Welcome to Xshire" signs.

If all children are equally important, valuable, precious etc etc then they are also all equally unimportant etc.

If one is to have state-provided help, surely some children need more help than others and those whose parents have less probably need a bit more help than those whose parents have more?

Having just come back from our local SS I would be gutted if it shut down. We are in a really mixed area, in all senses and our ss brings together so many different people.

It has been a lifeline for me when I was struggling with DS, we are probably average income so would lose out.

In fact today I was talking to a second time mum who decidded to BF after meeting BF mums at the SS (had never met anyone who had before).

It would be a crying shame.

I got DS1 speach therapy which was really effective and about to go on incredible years training. COuld never have afforded to do that privately.

Also, it's not just about the child. In a post natal blur I wouldn't have thought to search out a group/start own group (I don't think I even knew mother & baby groups existed tbh!) But when given the info from the HV about when and where different meetings took place at the CC, I was grateful to get out and meet other first time mums.

It's just getting rid of them by stealth. SanctyMA - I've agreed with everything you've written here.

I really do not like the way things are going at all.

what do i see here? A lot of concern about the future of these centres for those who really need it? Absolutely, and I think this is the main bit that needs addressing. We cannot risk those who cannot afford assistance to slipthrough childhood unhelped.

On the flip side there is a hell of a lot of wailing from those who think access to subsidised baby massage is a right not a privelege. If you can afford £25 a week for swimming you cannot complain about losing out on free/heavily subsidised activities. You just have to re-prioritise what you're budgeting for.

jenniferturkington - fair point, but the question remains - is this am activity that is best provided by the State or can/would/should private providers step in and run with it?

Does this include nursery schools?

BarmyArmy I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Every child is equally unimportant??
Aside from that, it is impossible to suggest that a child needs a resource less just because of wealth/class,

what coraltoes said.

Yes, what is the MC salary again? Not 21K household income, surely! I thought it was 45K or something equally "affluent"

so far his statement hasnt even been about eliminating any of the centres, but asking middle class people to consider that is it for those more disadvantaged than them...seems fair to me.

jenniferturkington - just that if there is no way of discriminating (i.e. "choosing") between children, then there is no way of indicating priorities.

What you're essentially saying is that all children are the same - which is patently not true.

@BarmyArmy I don't agree but maybe that's because I'm going by my own experience. I grew up in a WC home, went to a bottom of the league table comp, my mum got my clothes from C&A and the market or made them. My natural accent is cockney although I can slip into a MC when I need to.

Most of my friends left school at 16 and got a job but I went to uni and got a degree. My husband (who also grew up WC) and I now have a six figure household income. My friends are a variety of WC and MC. Most of my MC friends have household incomes lower than mine. I don't think its possible to change class so I must be still working class? I don't really fit in anywhere. I have so called MC aspirations and money but grew up, sound like and feel very comfortable being with WC people, which the majority of my friends are and I know others like me.

Why does being MC make you any more capable of setting up your own baby group, and why should you have to? We are not exactly spilling over with baby groups around here, most of the good ones are at the SS centres, as is the BFing group I went to. Should I not be allowed to get bfing support? FAr from being capable, in the early stages I very nearly walked out of most of the groups in fear, and that's coming from someone who is normally very outgoing and chatty. Having a baby knocked my confidence.

And, while I am supposedly middle class, I have 2 degrees and work in the public sector, between DH and I we barely take home enough to cover our bills, let alone shell out for expensive water babies classes, and baby massage classes. I just want to make friends and have a nice experience while on maternity leave, without breaking the bank, and without disappearing into a mire of depression.

I have found them to be very useful and now work at one. It is disgusting to thinkt hat people (lets face it women) from a certain background do not need help and others from a different background must do. Most classes have a set number of targetted take uo by those who dave who like to see just using the centres.

Obviously if you earn a few quid more you can't need help with breastfeeding, PND or SEN.

Also, whilst i see why surestart run things like BF support, access to therapists, social meetups etc. I do not think tax money is best spent offering baby massage or cookery sessions. Neither are essential, I know i grew up without any massage (i survived!) and my mum cooked with me at home. As long as it provides some good opportunity for mums to meet up and make friends, they can surely cook and play in their own homes as self formed groups on non Surestart days? Or am i being naive (i probably am)

Ah so now SS centres are being hailed as a veritable floodwall holding back an onslaught of PND?

Honestly!

Yet another dig re my children's swimming lessons. My children enjoy them. I'm not stopping them! We drive 1 small car, don't smoke, do not have satellite tv or ipods, wiis, playstations, ready meals etc. I hardly think we need budgeting advice from coraltoes!
If my SS wanted to make a small charge for classes for Middle Income families I would be happy to pay.
As it is, of the 2 SS Centres I go to, if the Middle Income parents were barred, the places would close down. They are the ones that go & keep the place open for any other parents who wish to go.

Also, at the very least, given the amount of money that has gone into creating CC's, employing staff, establishing services etc I do think that "middle class" people like me (from the 2 bed on the council estate the CC is situated in) should be given the option to pay our way vs be pushed out. How heinous that a group of people from mixed backgrounds would be told by local government that the connections that they've made are irrelevant because some of them don't fit "the target group".

A lot of supposedly "middle class" women live very isolated lives and have no community support. Through my CC group, I've met a lot of people off my estate and we've shared baby clothes etc. The local teen mums attend and can ask any mum for advice on croup, weaning, teething etc. There are a few MC mums who have PND too.. there's a Music Bugs class that the MC mums pay £4 for that is subsidised for those on benefits. There were some very useful safety seminars on babyproofing I found really valuable - and the mums on benefits got free safety equipment. I also met my driving instructor!

CC's help forge community links. I think it's ironic "middle class" Dave is all about the Big Society but wants to undo the small mteps towards social cohesion happening all over the country rather than look more creatively at increasing CC revenue e.g. by hiring out rooms for his "Big Society"

capricorn76 - you're middle-class. You might not like that but you are.

You lumping yourself in with people on minimum wage and benefits is as risible as the PM claiming to be middle-class (although, to be fair, he is actually upper middle-class...upper class being the aristos et al).

Housewife, they may get closed, but money redirected to those centres where people genuinely need subsidised help, in more deprived areas. do you not see this?! Yes some people will miss out, but generally the more socially mobile folk in society who will more likely access alternative sources for assistance ie: NCT and socialising.

I dont care what you have in your house, or what you spend your money on, but bleating about not having access to subsidised classes whilst paying full whack elsewhere is bonkers. A "small charge"??? anyone who can afford it should pay full charge, this is the point, at the moment funding is going on the wrong people! I would feel incredibly guilty not paying full whack when i know i can afford it. My parents on the other hand were poor so I benefited at the other end of the scale and know how crucial it is for families to be able to access resources without them being usurped by those less in need.

exactly "arses" letting people pay is a much better solution then just say they can't access it.

if they are wanting to save money then reducing the service then closing it down is even more of a waste considering how much was spent doing them up in the first place.

if they keep the same buildings, staff and privatise it in some way so gov doesnt have to fund it all but keep the services then that is fine. yes things like hiring out rooms etc to make money, much more sensible

arses - DC's point about the Big Society was that it would fill the vacuum that will be left when state involvement in such projects ends.

SS pushed out smaller, private nursery groups. Hopefully it's cessation/reduction will allow such groups to return and thrive.

People need to forge their own community links Arses. Spending big wodges of money on 'creating' them isn't the answer.

People are in a deskilled mindset where advice can it seems only be sought from paid 'professionals' and leisure activities are assumed to cost.

It's rot.

massivebumperlicious i agree with you.Dp and me have a good income, but i am on mat leave and now on SMP so very tight just now.Sure start have been a lifeline for me with my twins, i have met fantastic people, great advice when i need it and a very warm welcome whenever i go.
I go back to work soon, where i will be paying back into the system again.If i had no access to these places i would have become very isolated and possibly depressed.I have used the services available for 6 months and they should not be restricted to low income families, peoples situations are not black and white.