To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

[Housewife2010]

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

no, and i agree with you clare1973. neglected children who are truely abused wouldn't beenfit from ss. so if thta was part of the target for ss, then thta was a misjudgement.

Class is not dependant on income. A lot more comes into it; education, attitudes, aspirations etc. Politicians should be talking about middle income rather than middle class.
I hate Dave's term "sharp-elbowed middle classes". I find it rather offensive.

Using teh education / aspirations definition of class we are firmly MC

With the income one we are firmly WC

So yes, class is dependent on so much more!

If it was limited it should be only by income and then a pretty wide band. But I like the mixed approach of some being open access and some being invite only detailed before.

yanbu. many other issues mean children deserve the extra support that SS can give - SN, mental illness, DV, physical illness, bereavement etc affecting a family.

As a parent to a child with SN, agree with SWC and Riven - it was an absolute lifeline to have a professionally run, inclusive toddler group to go to. I know people take the piss out of baby massage as being m/c, but I found it very useful in encouraging confidence in handling my baby and dealing with teething/constipation etc without using medication. And the local HVs had quite a knack for bullying persuading the mums who they felt needed it to go along to baby massage.

capri, remind me what is the mn view of a MC salary ? what does it start at ?

WRT to the tragets actually it's about a whole big set of figures including things like low weight births operarea etc, not just neglect

A lot of those problems can be solved with access to MWs made easy, HV support, whatever.

It should be about that very large group who want to do their best but are lacking access through limited resources, and those that comprise the rest of scoiety so people get to mix.

In a world of estates and sink schools V league tables winners it may well be the only chance many people get, after all.

"Most WC people don't use them.

Most people that do use them are middle class."

How do you know this? Have they released details of every single person registered with a children's centre? because as far as I can tell, this only seems to be the case at some centres, not all. I can confidently say that most people who use my local one are working class. Yes some are middle class, but most are not.

I think what someone said earlier (sorry too long to go back and check) about the staff being proactive and getting people to come down is very true. I could make a wild stab in the dark and say is it mainly the ones where the HVs are based at the centre which is like this? It just makes sense - HVs are more likely to meet people than random children's centre staff, and if they are familiar with the groups etc they are more likely to recommend them. Even for things like breastfeeding support, which HVs are notoriously bad at (genaralising I know) - but if they are not sure about something, but can say "I'm not sure, I'll ask next time I see her. Or why don't you pop along to the bf group yourself some time, she is ever so nice."

Nowt wrong with being sharp-elbowed and middle-class!

Just means we make the most of our abilities and opportunities.

Better than being lazy and unambitious.

I also hate that your wage and class are supposedly linked. I don't think I fit neatly into any class bracket.

Bertie we were the procatice ones, and we did have an excellent HV yes, but it was also becuase we had excellent home visitors who met every family in the area in the postnatal weeks and were local, and becuase a few of us charities were also absed in the building so getting our lot in.

MC can be lazy and you full well know it, and WC people can be very hard working.

Better hardworking and ambitious than lazy and unambitious regardless of class.

I don't get it. Our local nursery school is a Sure Start center. Does this mean that the 2.5 hours a day is going to be withdrawn for 3 year olds?

How will they decide which Sure Start centers to close and which ones will stay open?

I haven't used Sure Start centres as I presumed there was some kind of income limit for people using them. As DD is nearly 5 now feel a bit that I didn't find out more and use them with her and DS.

SanctiMoanyArse - couldn't agree with you more.

@Oblomov. I have no idea what the MN view on a MC salary is. I just read that its supposed to start at £21k and when I look around me in the real world, people on around £21k seem to be struggling to do the basic MC things like go on holiday every year which must mean they can't be MC. There's nothing wrong with being WC, we can't all be MC. My parents are 110% traditional WC and I'm proud of this.

The American Republicans cunningly started this whole thing with labeling everybody who has a job as MC, that way when the government implemented schemes which adversly affecting the WC or poor, the so called MC would not see it as affecting them so they would go along with it. Thus they now have millions of people who can't even afford medical insurance and are sleeping in their cars calling themselves MC and thinking that this is okay because at least they have it better than the 'working class'.

capricorn76 - but class is intrinsically linked to your wealth.

Unless you're that Lottery winner bloke who pissed >£9m up the wall and has now returned to life as a streetcleaner, in which case you are chav scum and no amount of money will change that.

YNBU.
SS should not restrict people based om money- as someone said earlier- things are rarely black and white.

I used our CC a lot when I had DC1, I made a good group of friends from a variety of backgrounds. Fast forward to when the babies were around 18 months, some of us (not all) were told we couldn't come to the stay & play anymore because we 'aren't the target group'. It made it awkward for all of us- an attempt to divide our group up according to wealth

DC will stop the middle classes (whatever this means in this case??) using the centres, they will then highlight a supposed falling popularity and then they will be axed. I know nothing of national statistics, but in my local area this would mean a lot of young families losing a very valuable resource which is well used.

Our nearest SS Centre is very proactive. When I'd had my first child, one of the staff came out to tell me all about it & the services it offered. Unfortunately, she turned up before I'd received the letter telling me that she was coming. I'd just had my first baby & was a bit confused so I thought that she was another Health Visitor. The poor girl was rather embarrassed when I asked her how soon I needed to start using the pill again! When she'd gone & the post finally arrived telling me about her visit I realised why!

But BarmyArmy, wealth is never that clear cut either. Yes a person might live in an owned home in a good area, but they can still have very little disposable income. They should have equal opportunity to services/fun activities for the children. As someone said. it makes a mockery of 'Every Child Matters' otherwise.

Riven - yes you can. You can fall on hard times etc etc.

For the purposes of this issue, I think the PM was talking about the amount of money people had rather than their 'breeding'.

'I cannot afford nct membership, cookery sessions or baby massage.

Should my dcs miss out because dh and i work ft?'

Another person going on about what they see as a basic right like the other poster saying even though her dh earns over 60 grand a year she needs a place to take her kids.

God, the problem is we are all so spoilt and pampered that we see such fripperies as essentials.

Hmmm... Riven that is a good question.

My parents are WC as my dad worked in factories and my mum in a school kitchen, however they have and have had for some time (20 odd years)their own house and holiday villa overseas and my dad is not "educated" in the traditional sense but is so well read that he can actively inform and debate with intellectual accuracy. They also have holidayed more than once for many years. So income wise and lifesytle wise they tick the MC box however they would never claim to be so.

I think that the idea that we should be talkign income rather than class is key. I think the notion of class is outdated anyway.

I would hate to be excluded from the activities at ours, it is one place where all preschool children are welcome.

When DC3 is here I will be able to take all 3 along to the activities, a lot of the paid for activities here are age segregated. My 2 have got to do lots of activities that they wouldn't have had access to otherwise, because I don't have the confidence or skills to offer them, regardless of the cost.

I have also had great parenting advice from them.

I have seen instances where they have done themselves no favours though. 2 volunteer run playgroups near the centre closed down after they opened. I saw one lady who had moved into the area go up to them and offer to run a music group, as she had used to do that at her old SS and they just went hmmmm and pretty much ignored her. WOuld be so much better to support parents to support themsleves.

You don't need to be an NCT member to take advantage of a lot of the events/activities they offer. NCT are actively trying to get rid of their MC image & be seen as accessible to all. I help out at an NCT Bumps & Babies meeting regularly & on all our advertising we emphasize that it is free & you don't need to be a member.