To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

[Housewife2010]

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

SS@s vary in what they deliver

We did breastfeeding mentors, there was a communal agrdent hat if you helped at you got a share of the food, but no baby massage or cookery (sadly, cookery good idea if you are on a budget).

It's supposed to be delviered with community feedback in the planning stages so the community gets what it needs, as opposed to what some manager thinks it needs.

They did cheap nursery places but we all had an allocated number (2 iirc) and they were very much for at risk kids or where there was a significant home issue- eg a Mum with cancer, not there for anyone else. The cases whre SSD would have spent three times as much meeting same need otherwise.

TheCrackFox - damn good point about privately run playgroups being forced out by Sure Start.

Another example of the State stifling private enterprise and putting its nose into areas where it really isn't needed or wanted.

'The children that could really, really benefit from Sure Start aren't even going through the front door.'

Exactly. Think they drop by and make boats out of pneapples or avail themselves of pleasures of baby massage?

MD- if you've seen the data then you know some are hugely effective and some others are pretty much a cash disposal system.

Wouldn;t it be better to dispose of the latter and get the first ones rolled out?

Inefficient crap helps nobody but some of these palces make real contributions.

Pribbvately run playgroups have disappeared becuase A) theyc an't suit working aprent's needs, and B) the very many hoops around early years education.

Oblo, even when not on mat pay I can't afford unsubsidised cookery or baby massage etc.

Why should my dcs miss out? I contribute and pay my taxes so why can't i benefit.

Surely every child matters regardless of income?

I think it would be reasonable to charge a small fee for using the service for those who can afford it, but honestly, those people saying "Restrict it to those who most need it" need to remember that when the centres are closed down for 'lack of use'. That is what will happen, no question. And it is FAR FAR better for SS to have a healthy number of people using it, some of whom may not be the most 'needy' than for it to go altogether.

So;

First priority - low income families
Any remaining spaces can then be mopped up for a small fee by higher earning families.

What's wrong with that? Keeps it going for the people who need it!!!

Fwiw, income isn't the only measure of need - many people I know on 'lower income' also have lots of family living nearby, so have instant free babysitters, lots of family support if they're finding it tough, extra people to take the child out places, help out when there's a new baby etc. I have no family nearby, a small baby and 3 older children. Just because we technically are 'middle class' doesn't mean to say that we couldn't do with a bit of help every so often.

I think Surestart should be for everyone. We are fairly low income and may still be in the bracket although I suspect we will be a middle income family which means we will earn a couple of thousand over which doesnt mean we can afford anything else.

In fact both of my children have actually attended Surestart nurseries which I actually found loads better than thew private ones.

As always though, it is the people on the thresholds who miss out - if you are a low earner then you (rightly) get help to attend these sorts of activities. If you are a high earner you can pay to do them anyway. But if you earn just too much to qualify for the free help, then you still may not be able to afford any actitivities for your child, but won't get any help at all - for these children "Every child matters" is a joke, because they are the ones missing out, not the lowest or highest earners.

Yes of course barmy

I will continue to work ft, pay taxes and put up and shut up.

My dcs can just go without because i cant afford activities despite working dammed hard.

Very true Lily

Places should be assessed on need if they are limited- a MC Mum with severe PND needs a class more than a WC Mum who goes becuase her mate does.

I think it would be better to keep it as it is but make it work better by extending it.

Why close it at 6 when poeple need evening class venues, or places for clubs to meet?

Why limit it in the summer instead of renting to a school hols provision or SN scheme?

I've been trying to locate somewhere to run an ASD support class in my town with no luck. It's all already booked for three eyars by elderly groups and slimming classes. If there was a SS centre I could use it would be fantastic, and would also make an income for lots of uses too.

Exactly Lily.

My situation completely.

I also think it is good to have places where MC and WC people can mix together, it promotes understanding.

I often have to make excuses to miss DD1s dance class- it is the day before tax credits and so an unexpected bill leaves us without the £3.50 it costs. Plus if I am having a tired day it is all too much to do all the getting changed, tieing shoes, keeping the baby quiet and so on.

I can always go to Surestart though. We can wander in, the staff always give us a big smile and tell us what is on, we choose and I can just sit and breastfeed and know that DD1 is happy and safe and stimulated. The staff can advise me on any problems and tell me about things that are going on like courses. All the toys are lovely and good quality, and the soft play is lovely.

dinosaur, that is undoubtedly true, but unfortunately I don't think any number of Surestart places would help babies/children in that sort of situation. :(

Re privately run playgroups - there are still lots of good ones run by the NCT

Re restricting access - it depends on what DC wants to achieve but most of the research shows that the children that he wants to benefit will only benefit in the way that he wants them to if the intake in mixed and middle class cildren attend too.

he is right about the risks of imtimidation but why do children benefit from going? What is better about CCs than being at home? Once you start to list the advantages it suddenly starts to look like a list of things that people typically described as middle class do.

GeekOfTheWeek - you make your own choices. I'm just voicing an opinion that such services should be massively restricted to those at the bottom of the ladder.

Those of us higher up should make do with our own efforts - after all, they are largely responsible for our being higher up said ladder.

Surely there's a difference between middle class mummies elbowing their way onto oversubscribed services, and middle class mummies keeping services that would otherwise be unused going?

Depending on how these things are funded, joining a £1 subsideised cookery class could be 'hoovering up a freebie', or it could be that by boosting the numbers when the funding applications for next year's classes come round there is more funding made available.

Not sure that was very clear, but my understanding of a lot of these things is 'if people don't use /spend it, you lose it' with govt funding.

That doesn't work when people are hit by PND or disability though BA: doesn;t matter what your income is in those cases, you need proper support which is located in SS centres.

Would be a shame if someone with PND ws told they could afford to make do with their own efforts (presumably pay a psych, even though their money is probably all going on a mortgage anyway) and not allowed help.

And things like BF- research would suggest that helping people to BF reduces public expenditure overrall via health.

Surely it should be viewed as an entirety ('it' being the state balance sheet) not in small brakcets?

I live in a town which has some very deprived areas and a high rate of underage pregnancy, drug abuse etc. The Sure Start centre is located in a deprived area but most of the mums that use it are not from that area and are the type that do their best for their children - whether they are young, old, educated, non educated, wealthy, poor etc. Most of the people are decent types and the kids are usually clean, fairly well behaved etc.

I don't think the really neglected, deprived children who really need it will ever use it.

BA, I don't understand your last post?

Who is responsible for us being further up the ladder?

As previously stated, it is low earners and the higher earners that are always okay with regards to these situations.

Riven - I disagree with your first point and hope you are right with your second.