To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

[Housewife2010]

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

Also, all the Health Visitors etc are being moved into children's centres currently - which has changed baby clinic from being in a draughty, run down community hall with plastic chairs where everyone sat in silence (well OK not silence - the babies screaming constantly because they were bored or the scales were cold or they just didn't want to be undressed) - to a lovely new room with carpet, a rug with toys and mirrors where the babies can be put down to play while waiting, because the babies are interacting it gets the parents talking. The room is warmer and while babies still cry from being undressed they seem happier overall. Afterwards you can stay for a coffee and there is a playroom or a dining room/self serve "cafe" area with highchairs for the babies.

Okay the building must have cost a bit, but the rest of these changes - it can't cost much more to put a blanket on the floor and provide some instant coffee and a couple of highchairs (there is a donation box for the coffees so people can pay if they feel able to) and it's made a world of difference for people to be able to build up a support network.

smallwhitecat - apologies if my post offended you. My point is simply that subsidising middle-income families to do anything simply isn't what I pay my taxes for.

We should roll back the welfare state and restrict its use to those who can't afford to help themselves - as opposed to those who can afford to help themselves, so long as they stop shopping in M&S Food/Waitrose etc.

nowt wrong with the name Tarquin, btw...

Not everybody even has a HV any more; I haven't seen one for ds4 and he has two autistic siblings! You need to be borderline SSD referral to get a HV here now.

Just to point out that dh and I are middle income.

As I am on mat pay we are skint so I couldn't afford baby massage etc if I had to pay going rate.

Not a huge issue in the scheme of things but why can't i benefit when i need it.

I think that there should be some restrictions. For example DS and I have just done a fantastic cookery course - £1 per week including ingredients so it is clearly heavily subsidised. The sane "private" course is £6 per session. Most of the people on the course we did readily agreed that they would have / may in the future pay for the private course but if you can get it cheap at CC, why not?

oblomov our hv are at the surestart, midwive apps, hv, weaning help etc.. It's all quite nicely tied into one. Better support that way, I feel.

I suffer with pnd, part of my problem is getting out the house, and if I had to go and make and actual appointment with the dr, I wouldn't, whereas I am already down the surestart for weighing etc..so nip along to the pnd group/stay and play.

They can also keep an eye on DS1 and his speech regularly. The drs can't do that.

BA long term it does benefit society and cut down on benefit claims if kids from the estates and poorer households are not ghettoised surely?

Long term then less taxes would be needed all round becuase kids see that goodness, there's options out there.

And social services ahve a fair sized caselaod from the middle classes, much of which can be sorted out far more cheaply by a bit of state intervention in the form of ss centres a few years earlier down the line

Long term saving always preferable to short term gain

atmywitsend - there's no legal reason why you shouldn't take advantage of such courses.

Moral and economic ones aplenty, however...

moanyarse, you don't even get a hv anymore? you can't get rid of ours!
keen on paed referals, refers to speech therapists, offering advice on bf'ing weaning EVERYTHING !!

Well I live in a predominantly middle class area - no social housing, one bedroomed houses start out about £300K, and we have a SS centre, which is not used a lot and is struggling.

We've recently lost 2 yr HV check ups. Also all post natal courses have been dropped, and antenatal classes are also going.

But all this means if the make up of the local population changes, they are marooned with little or no support around them.

I dunno. I'm in favour of cutting services if they can be afforded by the users means but it sort of condemns sections of the community by assuming they will always be in the situation they are, when divorce, death or disability can crop up at any moment and scupper your economic stability.

.
'I do fund activities for my children - £25 a week for Waterbabies which is a lot!'

That is fucking priceless.
It epitomises all that is wrong with this country full as it is of whingers and moaners.

Housewife, you say only a few nose-in-the-trough types turn up to feedback sessions??

Exactly my point.

Nothing

I managed to get an HV to do a referral to optometry for ds4 as two uf have congenital eysight issues but otherwise they even sipped the developmental tests as an experienced Mum like me should know if baby is OK.

Except toddler is at the stage where ds3 regressed and frankly I have no idea what to look for, even my technically NT one has dyspraxia!

I think ds4 is NT though.

'For example DS and I have just done a fantastic cookery course - £1 per week including ingredients so it is clearly heavily subsidised. The sane "private" course is £6 per session. Most of the people on the course we did readily agreed that they would have / may in the future pay for the private course but if you can get it cheap at CC, why not?'

Yeah indeed, why not?
Hoover up every freebie going.
Except it aint free. People like me are paying for it, and frankly woud rather not.

smallwhitecate - when you pay your taxes, the Govt takes £100 off you, spends some of it in administration and bureaucracy, then gives you back £60, in the form of subsidies for such schemes as we have been discussing.

Now, wouldn't it be better if the Govt took £80 off you instead? You have an extra £20 to spend...on things you choose to spend it on...not on things over which you have no control (Sure Start, Trident, Free Schools, NHS etc etc).

Bribing us with an inefficient slice of our own money is what Govt is about.

moondog, I think the point was that the poster pays taxes so why can't she also benefit from the subsidised instead of just those that don't pay taxes in the first place.

I am shocked at all these £1 cooking courses and also the cheap nursery that NWlondonmum ?spoke of.
we get nothing liek that round here. not cheap childcare. or def not courses for £1.
£30 maybe, but not £1.

Fair enough, but it is masqeuerading as help for the impoverished which it isn't. I've seen the data for SS outcomes, as I have involved in it and frankly it is very disappointing.

Exactly swc.

I too pay taxes and am a supposed middle earner.

I cannot afford nct membership, cookery sessions or baby massage.

Should my dcs miss out because dh and i work ft?

I am with the view that Surestart was set up to help families on a lower income/needed extra help. NOT as a freebie for those who can afford expensive/other activities.

I was gobsmacked when my SIL was extolling the virtues of a free SS activity she had just managed to get her DS onto (strict first come first serve thing). Her DH is a very high earner, it just felt like she was taking someone else's place that could ill afford to lose out.

Surestart for those who need it should be free, for all other, they should pay.

geek, money is tight for all of us when your on mat leave. so no, i'm not sure you should get the cookery courses etc.

The big benefit of Surestart is the variety of people who use it. Yes, there are groups for certain things, such as the teenage mother groups or the disabled child groups, but there are also groups where everyone mixes. So in one stay and play session, there could be me (25yo, two kids, new to the area, history of PND), a teenage mum from the council estate, a Dad on his day off from the car factory, a 35 year old middle class extended breastfeeding mum, a grandma with her grandson who has downs syndrome and so on. We all mix together and learn off each other.

I know that when I had PND, the last thing I wanted was to sit in a room full of other people with PND. I needed to see people parenting and coping with it.

My ss centre is in the middle of an old mining town, huge amount of unemployment, tiny breastfeeding stats, child obesity, poverty, adult illiteracy and so on. Our ss staff have been told not to expect their contracts to be renewed next year.

I want to cry- Surestart actually saved my life, and even if it hadn't, it costs over £7 just for entry to some local paid for groups that aren't as good as the free surestart ones. I've met all sorts of people there and it really has made me a much better parent.

GeekOfTheWeek - yes they should.

I think the problem with some Sure Start centres is that they have been have been monopolized by middle class mums. This can be very intimidating for some mothers who simply do not have the confidence to leave the house let alone worry about how they will be judged.

The children that could really, really benefit from Sure Start aren't even going through the front door.

The other problem with Sure Start is that 10 yrs ago middle class mums were running their own playgroups etc but these could not compete with the state funded Sure Start. Hence they have closed.