to think that this particular fantasy/fetish is always a bit wrong? (potentially sensitive)

[ThatGirlSarah]

Sorry, didn't want to put the details in the title, owing to the subject matter. I am a lurker here, only just registered!

Is a rape fantasy always wrong?

I'm basically asking because someone I met earlier this year has talked about this with me. There is a backstory, we have been involved (although not physically, more as friends with a spark if that makes sense?) and he has admitted to me that he likes to push physical boundaries. Eventually, he said his ultimate fantasy is rape. Now, I know for a fact that he is referring to a set up scenario (like any sexual fantasy, dressing up as a nurse or a bus conductor or whatever) and that he is not going to go out and rape a woman, but I also know that he is very into sexual dominance (although this is also only in a set up situation) and tying women up etc.

Like I said, we are not physically involved, I have never been so with him, but hypothetically speaking, if someone you knew or were involved with was to admit this to you, would you be worried, or would you take it as just a fantasy and no indication of anything else? There is absolutely nothing in his character to indicate he would ever harm a women, I suppose I'm just wondering where this type of fantasy comes from?

Any thoughts? TIA.

hehe, I should have checked acronyms first, I just assumed it was the persons name, I wondered why she kept changing names and putting her own name at the end

TIA means Thanks In Advance, it's a pretty usual acronym I think

He is either a potential abuser or very immature. This is the sort of thing blokes i knew might come out with at college aged 17... Is he not used to women as such?

Rape isn't about sex - nor are rape fantasies. There is a world of difference between the 'relenting-after-all-secretary fantasy' and true rape - where do you think his fantasies lie?

AgentZigzag: I'm definitely not a troll, I just recognised some of the abbreviations and read the section on here for it. It good to know you're observant though! :)

Thanks for the book recommendation hobbgoblin, will have a think about that :).

As you are not sexually involved with this man, I'm not sure how much of your business his fantasies are - or, for that matter, why he is telling you about them in the first place. How did you 'happen' to get into this sort of conversation?

Because on the one hand, if he is just telling you he's into dominance and rape fantasy when all you had said was 'How are you today, do you want sugar in your coffee?' I would think it a bit odd and inappropriate and indeed a probable red flag.
On the other hand, a lot of people are into roleplay and BDSM and are perfectly nice people, because they have rules about consent, and about safewords (a word the submissive calls out to stop the scene if s/he is uncomfortable with it) - they are just exploring fantasies with other consenting adults. If you are not into this sort of thing, fine - say so if you meet a date who is, and if the date says 'Fine' and moves on to someone else, that's an ethical person; if the date tries to persuade you that you'd love it if you tried it, then that's a knobber, whether the 'it' is BDSM roleplay, spanking or straightforward oral sex.
I would advise you against having sex with this man as you seem to be thoroughly incompatible, but I would also advise you (unless you have other evidence of his abusive behaviour) to basically stay out of his fantasies. Psychoanalysing people against their wishes and without them having asked you to do so is rude and intrusive.

AFAIK TheDoodler, he has been in mainly long term relationships, though I am taking his word for that with no reason to really doubt him. He has been to university and is in his 20s.

My gut instinct is telling me he is a good man wanting to experiment with the bad side, but surely there is an easier/less extreme way to do that? I think that's what I can't get past, rape is such a horrific experience, and although I understand sexual dominance and submission, I can't fully get along with how someone would want to make something so damaging a part of their sex life.

I'm sorry, I know I'm not explaining this well, it's just a difficult thing to put into words!

It is way too elementary to assume that fantasies are linked to actual events in such a way. The actual fantasy is a product of all manner of experiences; fear of having been dominated for e.g. as much as the possibility of having enjoyed domination of a person. Sometimes they can be the embodiment of many experiences, sometimes the antithesis and so on...

Rape fantasy could be due to feelings of inadequacy, imasculation, a response to being a lowly employee or relief from being a big boss of a company with lots of responsibilities. Afaik the possibilities are endless, but of course you should bear in mind that it could be related to a very direct desire to control and ultimately rape a woman. Just be cautious but not too presumptious re. the origins of this fantasy.

SGB we met in a bar, had a couple of dates and then talked over email etc mainly, as I went abroad for a short time and he was working unsociable hours, so it was (and still is) difficult to meet up. However, I liked him, he seemed to like me, and so we stayed in touch.

I don't mean to psychoanalyse him and I get why you think it's rude and intrusive, I suppose I just wanted to assess this as far as it may possibly affect me if I was to meet up with him again. At the moment, I'm thinking that wouldn't be a good idea, just in case this was, like you say, more red flag than roleplay. But I'm not sure if I'm rushing to judgment on someone I like who was just being honest. Maybe he thinks it's better to be open about your fantasies right from the start. I think it just shocked me how honest he was, at least initially before I thought more about it and all the rest came to mind.

OK, sorry to throw a cat among the pigeons, but I met a guy like this as a naive 19 year old virgin.

I wasn't sure how to take it, or how serious he was, anyway, long story short he raped me.

And the only reason I escaped him was he was sent to prison for assault. (not of me).

Not trying to scaremonger, just sharing my experience.Sorry.

Hmm. Well, if you want to continue this discussion with him (though I agree with others, you sound dreadfully incompatible) - you could always challenge him on it.

My "rape" fantasies (the James Bond type) stopped after reading an article that linked such fantasies with desiring to be hurt by men. That would be very true in my case, in the exact sense described in the book Hobgoblin recommended. The minute I made that link consciously, I stopped enjoying the fantasy.

I do agree, though, that psychoanalysing the guy is pointless and intrusive. My feeling is that this conversation has disturbed you: you wanted to have sex with him; his fantasy has given you a weirdy feeling about that, and now you're trying to justify it. Don't. At best, he has very poor sexual manners. At worst, he's grooming you for abuse.

Cross him off your Xmas card list!

Listen to Bitter

I know a man who told me after a couple of dates that the porn he watched was fantasy stuff with women fucking themselves with knives. I was soooooooooo put off by this I stopped seeing him and yet in bed he was duller than dull. (Another reason not to share a bed with him again tbh.)

BitterAndTwistedChoreDodger, I am so sorry for your experience, but thank you very much for sharing it. Thank God he was sent away and you got away from him. What happened to you is what I think the most extreme lengths of this type of situation could involve. This guy could be totally normal, or this could be the tip of the iceberg. People are maddening .

Thank you again for sharing that, I really appreciate it, and hope you are okay now :).

God I am with your instincts WRT your reaction to a friend in this situation.

TBH I don't care why he thinks rape is a hot idea, and I don't see why you need to bother yourself about it either, unless you're setting up as his therapist or something. We're all so willing to "understand" grotesque things these days, if there's some reason for it then it's fine. No, people have always done grim things to each other and doubtless had some kind of reason at the time, however crap it might seem to others.

If someone said this to me, esp as others have said before getting into a sexual relationship, I would be inclined to thank him for the warning and be on my way. I read on here once something like "When someone tells you what they are, listen". He is telling you that he is a dominator who gets pleasure out of [women's] pain - you can bet he didn't mean that he wants you to kick him in the balls repeatedly - and who is turned on by the idea of rape.

TBH given the attitude of the courts to sexual fantasies (see here for instance, it is highly likely that if this man were to assault you against your will, you would be laughed out of court. It's not right, but getting into a relationship with a man who has flat-out said that his idea of great sex is rape, is tantamount to giving him a license to rape you.

I would be wary based on the fact that you're not actually in a relationship & he's talking about fantasy rape scenarios - if this was an established lover, & you'd been discussing/experimenting with BDSM for awhile, & had sorted out the whole safewords, trust thing, OK.

I'd worry that either he was setting up a situation in his head where, if you did get it together, he could rape you, & convince himself that you'd 'agreed to him being forceful' OR that he's just getting off on sharing this & making you uncomfortable.

Or, for that matter, he's testing the boundaries & - again in his head - your not reacting angrily/with disgust is 'evidence' that it's no big deal if he gets 'forceful' with someone else 'but I've got female friends who think it's a perfectly normal fantasy!'

Definitely red flag territory I think, sorry.

TGS - it is water long under the bridge, but please learn from my mistake. I was a young naive girl, without a resource such as MN

Joking aside, I ended up being in an abusive relationship with him for around six months. He wore me down to a husk,I sometimes think if he hadn't been sent to jail, I would have never snapped out of out of it and would still be with him now.

As it is, I still bear the scars and have 'ishoos' due to that bastard.

Sorry, I missed a bracket there, and realise I didn't really answer your OP.

You can't police someone's thoughts, so I won't say it's "wrong" to fantasise as long as you don't act on it. But I would judge someone who stated that they fantasised about raping as badly as someone who dreamt about abusing children, or got turned on by the idea of stabbing people to death.

Plus a lot of people do rape, presumably most of them have fantasised about it before hand, and as another poster said, acting out rape in a consensual format sounds like a stop-gap for men training themselves to rape IYSWIM.

Look, when you are undecided about whether or not to have sex with someone, forget digging into their past. Assess how they treat you right now. Unless you have volunteered the information that you have kinky submissive fantasies, he shouldn't be ordering you about or ignoring your opinions, or repeatedly trying to touch you when you have indicated you don't want him to do so. He is, of course, at liberty to have noted your reaction to his fantasy and decided (correctly) that you and he are not compatible and therefore moved on.
But, in answer to your OP: No. No fantasy or fetish is inherently wrong. It's wrong to do stuff to other people against their wishes, it's not wrong to think about doing it, nor is it wrong to do 'wierd' stuff with other people who enjoy it as much as you do.

Right, I think it's safe to say I will not be meeting up with this person. You have all been really great and enough of you think it's wary for me to know this is not a good idea.

I'm not going to make a big thing out of it with him, I realise he's entitled to his fantasies, but those of you who have said we are incompatible are right. I don't think I could ever make myself a part of his fantasy and if he's bringing it up before we've even had sex, it's obviously something important to him. Which I think means that even if he is a nice person, we're not going to have a compatible basis to build a relationship on even if we could meet regularly.

Thank you. You've all made me think clearly. Mumsnet = clearly a bible for life :).

I'm not sure how the OP can't fail to wonder why the man has these fantasies, especially if she knows him otherwise.

I don't think it's intrusive for her to 'psychoanalise' him and his fantasies, he's the one who told her about them she didn't force them out of him.

To me it looks like he may be telling her this to be truthful to her so it looks like she can trust him, because look he's told her his sexual fantasy.

Very strong point there, Elephants, about over-keenness to understand. Understanding is a step towards excusing (it shouldn't be, but it is) - and that's the lever every modern abuser uses against his target.

TGS, if you find yourself absorbed by this topic, go study it in the abstract! I honestly feel this guy is a potential risk to you. By sharing his fantasy, when you're not already super-close, he has crossed a boundary. You've responded to this by being interested and trying to understand. If you can't see the red flag, then please trust the rest of us. There's a big flag; it's red.

I dunno, SGB, you seem to be saying she has no right to let his stated idea of a turn-on affect her opinion of him. He's allowed to decide that she's not interested and move on, but she shouldn't worry her pretty head until he starts feeling her up?

I know a man who raped someone (I know that's not what we're talking about here) and that would definitely affect my decision as to whether to have sex with him, regardless of how sweetly he was treating me right now.

Hobgoblin - KNIVES???!!! eeek.

SGB some behaviours escalate over a persons life, and some behaviours do follow a person, they don't normally come to you with a clean slate.

I can see what you're saying, how a person is with one partner doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be like that with another.

But you normally assess how you think they're going to be in the future, and all you have to go on is their past behaviour.