OK, so how would YOU change the welfare system?

[MathsMadMummy]

just wondering following on from various threads lately. sorry it's probably been done before.

I guess it's more a question of how you'd change the culture really, where people feel it's their entitlement to never work etc.

I have no idea what the answer is, please tell me your bright ideas

I agree that it's wrong that we have reached a point in society where parenting is treated completely differently if the parents split, from if they remain together.

I would like to see a change of mindset so that once two people have a child together (and let's face facts, even where there are messy divorces, those two people did choose of their own free will to get together and have children at one point) they really understand that their responsibility to their children last just as long as if they remain together.

I still don't get why it's somehow acceptable for 'Mr and Mrs Smith' to be married, with young kids, and both needing to work to stay afloat, but if they split up, they will not only incur greater expenses by running two separate homes, but society will also allow Mrs Smith to sit at home and not work at the cost of the tax payer. It makes no sense whatsoever. The children would still have two parents, with earning potential. Yes, if you split with your partner there are practicalities like organising childcare but there are still two parents to share the organisation and expense. It's deeply unfair all round to have situations like this. Unfair on men, who have been emasculated by society, because the State becomes the 'father', picking up the pieces and financing these kids, deeply unfair to the children who deserve better, and deeply unfair to all those in employment, often parents themselves, who are having to pay for other people's children, when those parents are perfectly capable of earning.

There do seem to be a number of people on this thread who seem to have a raft of excuses why they cannot get a job...Cannot get relevant childcare, ex was a twat, parents dont want to help out, no qualifications, live in the wrong area but dont want to move, dont have a car, even the hilarious one about someone not wanting to go to a job interview because his designer shirt was ripped!!

Jobs lead to other jobs, once in something networking is so much easier. And yes, I have been made redundant in the past, horrible, living in London made it easier I have to admit and I did end up living back with my Mum for 6 months - didnt like it tbh but needs must.

I agree. MN has been a real revelation to me in showing up the differences in people's sense of entitlement.

I have, at various times in my adult life, worked for several years for no financial benefit (childcare costs), moved 160 miles from my home town (because there was no way I would ever have been able to afford to buy a house there) and taken additional qualifications at my own expense (on top of the two degrees I left Uni with). All of these are things which at various times, there have been MN threads about, with many people declaring that no way should they be expected to do any of those things!

I'm not holding myself up as any great example either - I honestly think all these things are perfectly normal. No one has a god given entitlement to remain in their town of birth if they can't afford it. No one has an automatic right to have everything handed to them on a plate.

And at least these days, there are loads more opportunities for people to extend their qualifications and get childcare than was the case 15/20 years ago. I have several friends who are taking OU courses, or getting other qualfiications, and they have a lot of the financial costs paid, because they only work a small number of hours a week. Also these days there are WTC and CTC and people on low incomes can get up to 80% of childcare paid for. Blimey! I would have given my right arm for even a tenner towards my nursery fees.

A lot of this is about whether you have a glass half full or a glass half empty outlook. Some people will always look for the positives, and push to improve their situation, and they're the ones who are more likely to achieve their goals.

I would say "cannot get relevant childcare" was very acceptable as a reason for not taking a job. I do work (part time as my son is autistic) and would struggle to find appropriate childcare for him if I worked full time. My son needs routine and his Mum who understands him and his needs. I need to be around at the end of the school day to sort out issues and misunderstandings when they occur - none of which I could do if I wasn't around., This is the reason I dropped from full time to 16 hrs a week 9 months ago. Yes the tax credits have gone up, yes I now get DLA but I get nowhere near the amount in tax credits and DLA that I lost in dropping my hours. Anyone who thinks I am living the life of riley on my extra tax credits lives in cloud cuckoo land.

My only good fortune is social housing - it's LDA (low demand accommodation) - that means I am in a place where nobody really wants to live, where drugs are rife, the police helicopter is a regular presence at night and some of my neighbours are antisocial to say the least.

I agree there need to be changes but quite frankly I don't need the changes affecting ME thank you very much - life is already hard enough. I bring in just slightly too much for any housing benefit too.

2shoes- am loving your suggestion of making people with over 3 bedrooms house the homeless. Now, I just have to choose which of my children the homeless person/people is going to move in with. Maybe they can move into our room with us. There's already 3 of us in there (no spare room for the baby yet) so we shouldn't even notice a few more kipping on the floor...

I certainly dont agree with sharing our house with a complete stranger - yikes... However, I have to say that one person living in a council house with 4 beds and then passing it onto their children (someone please correct me if I wrong on the passing on bit) is barmy. Council houses arent a right. You dont get one and then cling onto dear life regardless of whether your circumstances have changed.

If my circumstances changed and I could no longer afford our mortgage we would have to move, I wouldnt have any choice. That's just life.

"There's already 3 of us in there (no spare room for the baby yet) so we shouldn't even notice a few more kipping on the floor..."

So genuine question ... where are you planning to put this no doubt much wanted new baby then ?

THeJollyPirate - you're talking about a child with very specific needs. I think the point Rocky was making is that some people just use 'not wanting to use childcare' as an excuse to not work. eg there is a thread at the moment on here from a woman saying she'd applied for a job, been offered an interview and then didn't show up because she realised that during August she wouldn't make any profit due to childcare!

That kind of mentality is taking the piss really - I mean, over the whole year she'd make a profit, but she's using the fact that she wouldn't make as much money as she wants every month to not even try for a job.

Whatever anyone says about childcare, the fact is, it is far more available and affordable now than every before. When I had my eldest dd (now 18) there were no day nurseries in the local area, so I had no option but to use a CM (who was great btw, but there was no alternative). My younger two went to nursery, but we had to pay every single penny out of our taxed income - there were no subsidies or tax credits then. Also, with Maternity Leave being so much longer these days, the amount of childcare is significantly cut down anyway. I returned to work when my eldest was 3 months old(again, very normal then) and as she is a September birthday, and nearly 5 when she started school, we paid childcare for 4 years and 9 months. These days, women are far more likely to be off work for a year and then by the time the child is 3 they can get a certain number of hours free care anyway. I'm not saying it's always easy, but I do give a wry smile when people these days moan about childcare - they should have tried it 18 years ago!

THeJollyPirate - you're talking about a child with very specific needs. I think the point Rocky was making is that some people just use 'not wanting to use childcare' as an excuse to not work. eg there is a thread at the moment on here from a woman saying she'd applied for a job, been offered an interview and then didn't show up because she realised that during August she wouldn't make any profit due to childcare!

That kind of mentality is taking the piss really - I mean, over the whole year she'd make a profit, but she's using the fact that she wouldn't make as much money as she wants every month to not even try for a job.

Whatever anyone says about childcare, the fact is, it is far more available and affordable now than every before. When I had my eldest dd (now 18) there were no day nurseries in the local area, so I had no option but to use a CM (who was great btw, but there was no alternative). My younger two went to nursery, but we had to pay every single penny out of our taxed income - there were no subsidies or tax credits then. Also, with Maternity Leave being so much longer these days, the amount of childcare is significantly cut down anyway. I returned to work when my eldest was 3 months old(again, very normal then) and as she is a September birthday, and nearly 5 when she started school, we paid childcare for 4 years and 9 months. These days, women are far more likely to be off work for a year and then by the time the child is 3 they can get a certain number of hours free care anyway. I'm not saying it's always easy, but I do give a wry smile when people these days moan about childcare - they should have tried it 18 years ago!

Rocky .. the council move under occupied houses onto those who need them, my little brother has a friend who's parents were both dead by the time he was 16, the boy was rehoused in a one bed flat at 18 expected to give up the 3 bed family home, he was happy to do so.

So, have I got in wrong - when you pass on you cannot 'give' the council house to your children?

Does the house then just go back to the council for allocation??

Extension later this year. Not that it's really any of your business. We might be sleeping in the same room till she's 10 for all you need to know. Plus her older siblings will be going off to university, one every other year from next year.

Duchesse, are you refering to me, apologies but I dont understand your reply..

no sorry, was answering mamatomany's question about where we're planning on putting the baby once she leaves our room.

True - if my son was NT then I would still be working full-time and would certainly not be living in the area I am.

It's none of my business but your posting your business all over an internet site ? If you are so shy why would you do that ?
But since when are you allowed to extend council houses or are we paying for that ?

Well Rocky, I'm sure it happens but not through legitimate channels no. I guess as long as the rent and council tax is paid nobody asks questions.

There are plenty of people, who having had children together, and then split up,
Suddenly decide it's the job of the state to look after said children, even though in many instances children are still benefiting financially from having two parents,- albeit living seperately.
People who have children together need to understand that their children are their responsibility whether they are together or not!

''But Xenia all the research shows that a 50/50 split of time is damaging for children except in those few cases where both parents are committed to making it work and able to communicate well with the other parent. The children end up feeling as though they belong nowhere, rather than that they have two homes. And many parents don't want that'

Er, what research is this exactly Acanthus? And even if it is the case, what you are basically saying is that (like all things) it works when peopel want it to.

And as for 'parents not wanting that' well ,hey! Tough shit! Your kids, your job to be grown ups and sort out workable solutions even if they aren't exactly what you want.

Jesus, since when did life offer us a menu of desirable choices?

I'm in a developing country at present and have just had dinner with a couple who have sacrificed everything to ensure thier children are educated. They just do it and put thier personal needs and wants aside.

Hear hear moondog.

I also found that post by Acanthus very odd.Basically, she's saying that children are happier and more settled when their parents act like adults and communicate with eachother. Hardly rocket science. And it applies to parents living under the same roof as much as parents who live apart. You may divorce your partner, but you don't divorce your children. Why on earth should a 50/50 split be damaging anyway? The parents decided to have kids together, there's no law that says one parent is more important than the other - it's really weird to suggest that shared parenting is somehow damaging.

Besides, I thought the evidence shows that what is far more damaging to children is the appalling fact that within a few years of a family breakdown, a shockingly high proportion of fathers have no contact with their kids.

Yes, I think we are not vocal enough about the damage that family/relationship break-ups cause (and yes, I do know that in many cases thre is no option).

I've taught many youngsters, teenage boys in particular, who would have been far BETTER off having shared, 50/50 parenting, rather than having little or no contact with their father and too much contact with their well-meaning but ineffectual mother.

And they in turn become dangerous individuals with little to offer.

Oh, this is depressing me. I have so many examples from the people around me.

EX p is healthy, mid forties, has a degree and private education on benefits for last year so he doesn't have to pay more than £5 a week for DS.

Sister's children are wallowing in tax credits and that £30 a week for going to school thing, but their father (split from mother but still provides and sees them all the time)Inherited half a million quid from his Father last year, and has bought both the kids sports cars.

neighbour on DLA with £20,000 mobility vehicle, but goes on pub crawls til the early hours, and walks 2 massive alsations for hours every day...oh, and his wife is at home too, paid to be his carer.

friend of friend has twin babies, full benefits but her working boyfriend lives with her, undeclared...

And Me and DH struggle on with 2 jobs, mortgage, csa money going out, childcare, and get nothing but child benefit and teeny bit of tax credits which will stop in april anyway.

I don't have an answer. I think maybe we will just all implode and go back to begging / workhouse.

world gone fucking mad.