OK, so how would YOU change the welfare system?

[MathsMadMummy]

just wondering following on from various threads lately. sorry it's probably been done before.

I guess it's more a question of how you'd change the culture really, where people feel it's their entitlement to never work etc.

I have no idea what the answer is, please tell me your bright ideas

It's a cop out to say that.
It suggests that the population is clearly divided into some who've had it cushy and the rest who have had no chances.

Life isn't like that. Sure, there's an element of luck, and we all have our own upbringings, with good and bad in them, but to the greatest extent we've got to take responsibility for our own destiny.

As I've said before, I wasn't born with any great privileges, I actually went to a pretty mediocre school where most pupils didn't even stay on til 6th form, I wasn't born into wealth, I've never inherited anything,

Life is made up of choices.

I could have chosen to piss about at school and not work for my exams.

I could have chosen to go straight into work at 16 or 18 and have some immediate money rather than study hard at University and then do a post grad training.

I could have chosen to have kids with my first serious boyfriend who was gorgeous, charming but not totally reliable.

I could have chosen to give up work completely when my kids were young and all my salary went on childcare rather than stick with it for the long term.

These are all different paths I could have taken - and every MNer will have her own story of paths she could have taken.

And yes, life is a bitch sometimes, and DH and I could split up, but you know what? I trust him to be decent enough to stick by his responsibilities.

Well lets just hope he does then ..you only have to read the relationship boards on here to see how often it goes tits up ..all made bad choices did they? you are very naive if you think that

How I do agree with you Violethill! The view that people have been unlucky, I was just walking down the street and suddenly found I was a single mother living on benefits actually insults the people that it has happened to. You make your choices in life, I was listening to something on the radio where a daughter was ranting that her elderly mother was given a couple of credit cards and ran up £20k of debt, she said her mother was somewhat forgetful she was blaming the banks and everyone she could think of for giving them to her.

The problem is what is meant to happen, do you say over the age of 70 you dont know what you are doing so you have to get the permission of your family in order to get a credit card or worse a committee decide?

And also, what on earth did she spend 20k on!!

Read my post again. I didn't say it's as simple as some people = good people who make good choices, and some people = bad people who make bad choices.
Christ, this isn't some bad novel, it's life, we're all living in the same universe. No one ever knows exactly what anyone else's life story is, you never know what's gone on behind closed doors, and what dreadful things people have had to cope with in their life.
Fact remains that some people just have a greater sense of responsibility than others. Which you clearly agree with, as you mention the relationship boards.

That was in response to to usualsuspect btw

Honestly Usual - the view that most men are wasters and will run at a moments notice is really not true. We all need to pick our partners carefully -if it doesnt work out that is very sad but you chose that person..

I have recently moved from a sales position (with the same company) into a non bonus role. Of course I miss the money, I miss the banter of sales people but I made a choice, move or potentially lose my job.

Did I say that Rocky12? no.. What I said was some people think they have made the right choice but it still goes tits up ..do you understand now

It's also deeply sexist and very disrespectful to hold that view - disrespectful to men because it lumps them all together as 'bad', and disrespectful to women because it implies that they are weak little flowers who can't possibly be expected to be an equal partner.

I chose my DH as much as he chose me.

Where did I say all men?

So what exactly are we suggesting happens to those people who make bad choices?

Eh? We all make a whole myriad of choices, some great, some not so great. That's the point I was making. That life isn't black and white. Hopefully people learn through their experiences, and work hard at making good choices....isn't that what we all aim to raise our children to do?

I'd feel I was somewhat wasting my time as a mother if I honestly believed that life was going to zap my children with either 'Good' or 'Bad'!

So a mother makes a bad choice and the child has to suffer because of this?

Children suffer all the time because of bad parental choices.

Some children have parents who drink excessively, smoke around them, fight verbally and physically in front of them, don't feed them well, don't read to them, don't take them out for walks in the park, have acrimonious break ups, take up with unsuitable new partners.....

The duty of the state is to intervene when a child is at serious risk, sure, but anyone who thinks everything is a level playing field and that all children are equally parented is being naive to say the least.

The point is that many people believe the state has gone too far in almost encouraging this abdication of responsibility. Some parents now feel it's their right to live beyond their means, or walk away from situations and relationships as soon as the going gets tough. They feel it's their right to mess up with their first family and just start breeding over again with someone else.

The welfare state is not there to replace feckless parents - it can't anyway, as the most important things that a child needs are love and emotional support. If parents split up, the state throwing money at them rather than expecting them to face their responsibilities isn't going to make everything better. What may stand a chance of making things better is for the state to encourage co-parenting properly, so that even when a couple split up, the expectation is that both parents continue to, well.... be a parent

There are exceptions to what you say VH: rare but obvious ones such as DV etc, I know theya re generally assumed but I preferr to make certain they are clear. Someone reading adn experienceing doesn't need to feel guilty and rather awfully DV often starts in pregnancy (wjhy is that?) so people sdon't always go in on a level playing field.

but.

MN seems to make people apranoid about men. yes there are some sods out there and actually they are rather excellent at covering thier tracks.

But a great many men are not like that. I had to quit reaidung relationships for ages as I started to mistrust my won DH based on otehr people- how is that sensible? I trust him implicitly; I have trried to boot him out fgs (I got it into my head a few months abck that one of us giving up our lioves for SN was inevitable, both was silly and he should run)- he refused to go of course.
Heck, he waited until he met me to sleep with anyone: hardly Mt Lothario (and he was 28).

I admire my Dh and absolutely that includes his sense of responsibility, the fact that he has tried to produce a solution to every pieve of bad luck (and it really does exist!) that we have encountered. Notb always solving things but always mitigating them.

I agree Sancti - I think MN can give quite a skewed view sometimes - but then I guess 'Realtionships' is going to attract people who maybe aren't in the happiest situations.

But it doesn't help to demonise either gender - yes there are some awful people out there - women as well as men- but in the main, the majority of people want to meet a partner, have children and get on with life. And when life throws shit at you (and you've clearly had your share) then you stick together.

Whenever I read threads which seem to demonise men I feel quite sad, because no doubt many of the posters are bringing up sons themselves - these are the adult males of tomorrow, the partners for our dds. And they're really not all bad!

I just think overall things have swung too far and society no longer supports the idea of a man and woman being parents as a life long commitment - and that's not good for any of us, least of all our children.

if you are referring to me I have been with my dp for 30 years ..quite a good choice actually ... but I can still empathise with others ..a practice that is sadly lacking on this thread

"Given that child maintenance is no longer counted against means tested benefits it means the mother can claim from the father and still get full state benefits which is very wrong. Why count income from the father when you live together but disregard it when you dont. Also, why should it just be one parent that supports the child and not both if the other option is to claim benefits."

One of the reasons that maintenance is not counted anymore is because of the large amount of absent fathers who skipped payments and then never had them all recovered so Mums were missing out. My Dad would pay for a few months then not pay for abouot a year, get taken to court where the judge never made him pay in full as he had a history of violence.
If the mum is getting a £100 a week in maintenance off Dad so can't get IS and Dad decides not to pay for a few weeks what does she do?

That situation sums up exactly what's wrong though doesn't it Debs? Father buggers off, doesn't pay maintenance, gets taken to court and lo and behold, the law says, oh you're a violent person so we won't enforce payment.

Total law of the jungle. If you abide by the rules, you get shafted. If you don't abide by the rules, and throw in a bit of violence or the threat of violence, you're untouchable.

Do we really want to be living in a society that operates that way in the 21st century Western world?

Debs, I understand the logic behind it, doesnt mean its the right thing to do or that everybody has to agree with it.

Its two faced really, we want society to ensure the NRP still plays a part in the childs life and financially provides yet on the other hand we allow the PWC to not work and support the child. BOTH parents should support the child not just the NRP.

If our courts started access at 50/50 then neither side would have to pay maintenance - child wins as they get to see both parents for equal number of times, costs are split evenly and both parents can work knowing childcare costs are being shared.

Agree- it should mirror the expectation of all parents - that the responsibility is an equal one. Many couples both work, both contribute to childcare,and have no option but to organise themselves so it all works. They entered into parenthood together, so neither should just jack it in. If a couple split, the emphasis should be on the fact that the couple have chosen to divorce, but their status as a parent remains the same. it's no less than the children deserve.

It would be greast if that is what happens when people split-up. Unfortunately people get hurt and use that aginst each other. Jobs aren't for life so parents can't always keep up payments. Every family can not have the ideal break-up where the kids are looked after 50-50, even if that was the norm families would fall by the wayside. That is why we have a welfare system to catch the fallen. It will never be perfect and some will cheat it but ultimately it is all we have and it is what we need.

I agree the welfare system is to catch the fallen, but you said your father was let off payments because he was violent. That's not about not being able to afford to pay - that's about making a choice not to. I don't see how a civilised welfare state can ever be seen to condone violence

I feel at the moment those most punished are the women who make good choices .... got a man who loves you and DC, right well you're taxed to high heaven to pay for those who haven't .... bought a house in a good area with good schools, your school get least funding, equipment, building upgrades because the PTA will cover that, the government money can go on the school down the road that gets vandalized weekly by it's delinquent pupils.
There's many a time I've considered moving to the poorer area to save myself a bloody fortune in housing costs and for the nicer playgrounds.

Mamatomany have a [biscuit}