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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

four year old needs some help

80 replies

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 18:08

DD is 4.8 and starts school this Sept. She has always been painfully shy but over the last few months has started to be a bit more confident with others. She still finds it hard to speak to adults, especially people she doesn't know well.
She saw a poster for a drama workshop,|= which runs Tues-Fri this week and begged me to let her go. This is very unusual for her and I explained that I couldn't stay, I would be at home with 2 year old DS. She was fine with this.

So this morning I took her in, she was a bit nervous but within a couple of minutes she was running around the hall and waved goodbye happily. I spoke to the teacher, explained that dd was unlikely to speak out as very shy so to please make sure she went to the toilet/had a drink etc in the breaks. She said all the younger ones are taken to toilet at break, not asked to put hands up.

I arrived to pick her up and noticed she was wearing different trousers. Teacher took me aside and explained that she's wet herself and been really embarrased & upset in front of the other children. Then I spoke to main teacher who said dd had not asked to go (which I had told her would happen). Because of needing a wee so badly, dd didn't touch her drink. Also dd's lunchbox was still almost full. She said she hadn't been able to open the tubs to get her food out. Sandwiches were in clingfilm so she's eaten them. I spoke to the main teacher again and she said dd didn't ask for help and teachers hadn't offered. There were about 15 kids there (aged 4-10) and 4 teachers. AIBU to think dd could have been given a bit of help, especially since I had told them she was unlikely to ask? I will wrap all her food in clingfilm tomorrow anyway so she can at least eat her lunch.

OP posts:

Coldfire · 04/08/2010 16:05

I think YANBU, purely for the fact that you had forewarned the course leaders and they still accepted your DD.

They should have been prepared to help her.

horridhobo · 04/08/2010 16:16

YANBU. I work in a primary school and sometimes help with lunchtime supervision. There are 42 children in the same room - mixed ages admittedly - and two supervisors. The supervisors would ALWAYS check that a 4 year old was coping OK with their lunch and not wait for them to ask for help. How difficult is that, especially if you had already flagged up the problem? A lot of children - even older children - struggle to unwrap certain things, ie these pesky "school bars". The wee thing is unfortunate, but again not at all unusual for 4 yr olds (and older).

3Trees · 04/08/2010 16:19

Your poor DD!!! You did everything you could to alert the staff that she might have issues speaking out, and they didn't help her EVEN THOUGH they promised they would! I think that's awful!

yes, she is young, but youngsters, especially shy ones in a new place need some help settling in.

I always show DS the toilets at a new place, and then he is happy to take himself, whether or not he has asked anyone. (I realise this might be a problem when he is older at school, but for now it works, adn I have had no reports of problems at preschool)

I realise that didn't help her, but I would have been very cross with the staff there, who didn't do what they said they would. irrespective of anyone else saying she should be able to do those things, it doesn't matter, the STAFF SAID THEY WOULD HELP WITH THESE THINGS AND THEY DIDN'T.

shockers · 04/08/2010 16:19

Hope she's had a good day today and that yesterday's events were just teething troubles. I think a drama class is a fab way of boosting her confidence if the staff there make her feel comfortable.

tethersend · 04/08/2010 16:38

Have you thought of using a 'help token' with her? A card or a bead/counter of some sort which she could keep in her pocket and discreetly pass to an adult or designated older child to indicate that she needs help. It is important to explain that if the teacher receives the help token, s/he should take your DD to one side and ask her what she needs- ie not ask her in front of everyone else.

It can be useful for a child trying to build up their self confidence to feel that they have a way of asking for help which does not attract too much attention to them; using a token (and fading it back eventually) can help to do this.

Hope she had a great time today

grapeandlemon · 04/08/2010 16:42

YABU she sounds like she is not at all ready for the class really. Why did you send her with lunch boxes she cannot open? Sounds like she was totally unprepared for the whole thing.

tethersend · 04/08/2010 16:50

If the class is being run for four year olds, it should be open to four year olds- this behaviour is typical of many four year olds.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 04/08/2010 18:19

Thanks everyone, she went again today and when I arrived she was joining in the singing and dancing and appears to have had a lovely day. One of the teachers called me at lunchtime, as I had requested, and said dd was enjoying herself and had been to the toilet, eaten lunch etc. Maybe yesterdays teething problems were mostly nerves and she felt a bit easier today.

tethersend I like your token idea, that is a great way to ask for help discreetly. I will talk it through with dd and see what she thinks. She hates to be singled out in front of a group.

grapeandlemon I sent her with a similar lunch to the one I have been sending to nursery for the last 3 years. She can open the lunchbox, I assumed the teachers would be able to help her open her 2 little pots as they all eat together. DD asked for strawberries & raspberries, I was keen to give her something she would enjoy and how else would you pack soft fruit? I did not think she would be left to struggle by herself when the adult:child ratio is so high.

OP posts:

ChippingIn · 04/08/2010 18:39

I'm pleased she went today and had a lovely time, it will do wonders for her confidence.

Personally I wouldn't go down the 'token' route unless you absolutely have to, I think you are better to just make sure there is one person who she is comfortable asking. When she starts school there will be a teacher and a TA, she will favour one over the other and I am sure that once she starts school her confidence will soar - I think the token thing will only complicate things at school. (sorry tethersend, just my opinion.)

[I pack soft fruit in a ziplock bag inside a lunch box and if it's going in with heavy things I put it in a box/bowl, but don't seal it properly, but really, that's by the by!}

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 04/08/2010 18:44

Thanks ChippingIn, I appreciate any tips on packed lunches! Although she will be having school dinners from September so hopefully won't have a problem.

She is full of beans tonight, wants to show me the dance routines she's learning and said she had lunch with an older girl who was very kind. I am really hoping her confidence will grow.

OP posts:

tethersend · 04/08/2010 18:44

I don't agree about it complicating things, ChippingIn; it's really simple and I have used it successfully many times- it's far less complicated than the nominated person being unavailable, which would be inevitable.

It works for some kids and not for others; MrsDOL's DD may not want to use it at all, but it is a useful technique.

ChippingIn · 04/08/2010 19:03

tethersend - do you use it with school age children? Do you find the teachers willing to go along with it? I really don't see how it helps Surely if the child is confident enough to give it to the teacher they are able to ask the teacher something (even if it's almost a whisper to ask for the toilet) and surely it would mean making sure all the teachers/assistants/parent helpers/lunch staff etc etc know what it means when a small child gives them a bead (or whatever).

Sorry, I just don't get how it's easier than encouraging her to be a bit more confident?

I think it's a brilliant 'tool' for a non-verbal child or a child that is verbal but very, very difficult to understand.

With the Op's DD I think it will soon sort itself out when she starts school.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 04/08/2010 19:05

I think the token idea may work well in this instance, hoping once she starts school she will learn to trust the teacher and/or TA enough to approach them. It is a lovely idea.

OP posts:

tethersend · 04/08/2010 20:07

Have used it with children from age 4-14, with children with different levels of need.

I agree that logistically it is no easier than asking a teacher, but it symbolises a different sort of communication and is useful in combatting anxiety- the child knowing that they have the token by simply feeling it in their pocket can alleviate stress and make initiating communication less daunting for them. They do not have to announce their presence or seek eye contact, they can simply put the token in the teacher's hand safe in the knowledge that the teacher will respond.

I am a teacher, and it is very simple to communicate to all school staff via a staff meeting/briefing the meaning of the token and what to do if the child gives it to you. In most cases, the child stops using it themselves after a while, but it can be faded back if needs be.

I agree with you that the problem will sort itself out at school, but this technique supports the development of self confidence in a more structured way.

ChippingIn · 04/08/2010 20:17

Interesting... thanks for that

tethersend · 04/08/2010 20:21

It's nice to talk shop TBH

SpeedyGonzalez · 04/08/2010 20:33

Your poor DD. I think bearing in mind her shyness it was incredibly brave of her to suggest she attends the group (AND without you). I do think the age range is too broad - can't imagine how they could teach a class well across such a huge age span. I wouldn't take my child to such a group, especially not at your DD's age.

On the subject of age, I don't understand the criticisms of the OP for sending a DD to the group when she has a risk of wetting herself when under pressure. She'll be starting school in a month, should the OP cancel that?

The teacher said they were going to take all the children to the toilet together. They didn't, then it seems they expected the children to ask. So they have failed to stick to their reassurances to the OP about this.

dreamylady · 04/08/2010 21:57

So glad to hear she went back and is enjoying it Parenting's full of these tough decisions....I tell myself that right or wrong, the fact you've thought about it carefully is enough to know you've done a good job! In this case you (and her) did this, and also made the right choice, not the easy one. A shame you were let down by the staff but it seems like no harm done.

womblingfree · 05/08/2010 01:59

It's worth considering how easy it is for her to get into her lunch things when she starts school.

My DD started last year and is pretty confident on the whole, but her school had a system of the Year 4 kids going in to help at lunchtime, which really freaked DD out and she completely refused to ask them to help her with anything and started specifically asking me to leave certain things (i.e. crisps) out of her lunch box if she couldn't open them herself.

In the end, I went in and saw the headteacher around Easter about a few things and mentioned the older kids helping situation. She admitted that it hadn't worked ouhow they'd planned and that the Year 4's were still slightly lacking the maturity to deal with the Reception kids appropriately. Within a couple of weeks they stopped it and DD had been fine since then (and can open her own crisps now anyway )!

Hopefully this drama course your DD is doing will help to boost her confidence too.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 06/08/2010 18:22

Thank you all for your advice. DD has found each day a bit easier and finished the course today. I went to watch the play and she was really excited and happy. She sang and danced as well as your average four year old, and stood up to say her line in front of around 30 adults.

Needless to say I am very pleased that her week has got better and am really proud of her for sticking with it.

Early nights all round I think - has been a long week!

OP posts:

dreamylady · 06/08/2010 19:35

katiestar · 06/08/2010 20:04

'She said all the younger ones are taken to toilet at break, not asked to put hands up.'

I can't see where the staff said they would ask her if she needed to goto the toilet.She seems to have said she would take all the little ones at breaktime.Didn't she do this?

My DD2 at the age of 4.8 would have been at fulltime school for 2 terms and I would have thought her really wet not to be able to open tubs and packets by herself by then!
I think you need to work with your DD on her ndependence.Give her things she can open by herself and at home make her have a go herself not waiting for you to run to help.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 07/08/2010 08:26

katiestar, yes, after two terms of full time school most reception children are settled and coping well. And you were well into the routine too I imagine, esp if you had an older child at school.

But my dd has never been to school. She has no elder siblings so this is new to both of us. She has lunch at home/friends houses, where food is not served in tubs, and also at nursery where the staff help out. I don't think she is "wet" for not having the physical strength/skills to do something, especially when it has never been an issue before.

DD is very independent at home, but is shy with strangers. This was her first day on a summer workshop where she knew nobody. The issue is not what she can or can't do, it is that I asked the staff to help her and they didn't.

OP posts:

ChippingIn · 07/08/2010 20:59

katiestar - yep, my comment on the other thread still stands.

MrsDermotOLeary - it sounds like she had a brilliant week after a shaky start :) She did really, really well to do what she did and speak in front of all of those grown ups!!

katiestar · 07/08/2010 21:18

chipping in- who are you, and what are you talking about?

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