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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

four year old needs some help

80 replies

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 18:08

DD is 4.8 and starts school this Sept. She has always been painfully shy but over the last few months has started to be a bit more confident with others. She still finds it hard to speak to adults, especially people she doesn't know well.
She saw a poster for a drama workshop,|= which runs Tues-Fri this week and begged me to let her go. This is very unusual for her and I explained that I couldn't stay, I would be at home with 2 year old DS. She was fine with this.

So this morning I took her in, she was a bit nervous but within a couple of minutes she was running around the hall and waved goodbye happily. I spoke to the teacher, explained that dd was unlikely to speak out as very shy so to please make sure she went to the toilet/had a drink etc in the breaks. She said all the younger ones are taken to toilet at break, not asked to put hands up.

I arrived to pick her up and noticed she was wearing different trousers. Teacher took me aside and explained that she's wet herself and been really embarrased & upset in front of the other children. Then I spoke to main teacher who said dd had not asked to go (which I had told her would happen). Because of needing a wee so badly, dd didn't touch her drink. Also dd's lunchbox was still almost full. She said she hadn't been able to open the tubs to get her food out. Sandwiches were in clingfilm so she's eaten them. I spoke to the main teacher again and she said dd didn't ask for help and teachers hadn't offered. There were about 15 kids there (aged 4-10) and 4 teachers. AIBU to think dd could have been given a bit of help, especially since I had told them she was unlikely to ask? I will wrap all her food in clingfilm tomorrow anyway so she can at least eat her lunch.

OP posts:

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 20:05

She was keen to go and I thought it would be a nice thing for her to be part of. DH called the teacher a few weeks ago to ask her how it would be run and the average age of the children there, child to adult ratio etc. She told him that there would be several children dd's age there and that the staff ratio was one to four. She was very reassuring and dh was very happy with the whole thing. She said they would call if there was any problem

OP posts:

NonnoMum · 03/08/2010 20:10

Agree with blametheparents

I have run similar courses and we wouldn't consider a child who hadn't already started school - especially mixing with such older kids.

And now, having my own kids, even wander if that is too young.

A day is a long time for anyone.

acebaby · 03/08/2010 20:10

DS1 goes to a play scheme (he is 5.0), ratio approximately 8:1 and the staff there routinely check that the children can get into their lunches. The older children help out the younger ones as well with awkward packaging.

YANBU to expect your DD to get some discreet help. I would expect them to give the little ones the odd toilet reminder as well (particularly on the first day). 4.8 is still very little.

redskyatnight · 03/08/2010 20:20

DD (4.6) goes to a summer playscheme for 4-12 year olds but it is one which is a pre-school/after school club normally so the staff are used to little ones (and suitably trained) and giving them special attention (and making sure the big ones don't trample on them).

I think there are playschemes and playschemes. I picked this one because I knew that it was not far off the nursery environment that DD is used to. I'd hesitate to send her on a drama course where the staff are basically trained to - er - teach drama and there was likely to be a wide age range. And she is a confident child.

sleepingsowell · 03/08/2010 20:22

I would also think she's too young - she may have begged to go etc but she is of course only 4 and clearly the wetting, etc is a sign of that. I would want to send my child anywhere alone until I knew they were going to be able to do the basics like ask to go when they needed the loo.

I would just keep these kind of activities etc for when she's older, say 7 or 8. I realise it's very much the fashion now for kids to have lots of activities but it's not obligatory! You won't be depriving her of anything!

I think it was worth a try, you went with what she wanted which was nice of you, but she has shown she's not quite ready for things like this imo.

mumeeee · 03/08/2010 20:27

YANBU. Yes she is young but someone should have helped her open her lunch and asked if she needed the toilet. I have helped at playschemes and 4 year olds were always taken to the toilet and we would check they were okay when eating thier linch.

zapostrophe · 03/08/2010 20:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 20:46

I didn't send her because it's fashionable to do loads of activities, I sent her because she was keen to give it a try and I believe in her. It's the only planned activity for her this summer. The next three weeks will be spent out and about the local parks and playing with friends.

sleepingsowell do you have any suggestions for what I do in September when dd starts school? She is perfectly able to go to the toilet/wipe herself/wash & dry her hands at nursery, preschool and at home. She is shy. How do I encourage her to speak out?

I assumed that because the teacher has a dd the same age and a younger child at home she would take me seriously when I spoke to her this morning and give dd a bit of help.

OP posts:

rotool · 03/08/2010 20:48

YANBU to expect teachers who are running a course from 4 years upwards to expect that the younger children in the class may need a little help.
They should realise that young children may be shy and also that they may not be able to wait untill break time to go to the toilet and should have asked them earlier.
Again where your daughters lunch is concerned would it have been to much for an adult to check every child in every age group was OK?
I would not send her there again.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 20:51

She would have no problem waiting til the break as I took her to the toilet when we arrived. She wet herself around 3pm, she arrived at 9am. The teacher told me all 4 and 5 year olds were taken to the toilet at break time to make sure they were ok.

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mangoandlime · 03/08/2010 21:01

Oh your poor little girl. It does sound a bit rubbish really, I wouldn't be happy. I'm sure you felt confident enough to send her after all the reassurance (and talking to the teacher) but this has made you think twice. I wouldn't be going back.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 21:05

I am going to ask dd in the morning whether she wants to go back. I will pack her lunch in easy access wrapping and the teachers have said they will take her to the toilet regularly. If she wants to go back I will call them at lunchtime to check she's happy.

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MillyMollyMardy · 03/08/2010 21:08

ChippingIn I too can remember the humiliation of being told no I couldn't go to the toilet and would have to wait until later. A full assembly with parents [blushgo OP maybe she is a bit young and not confident enough for the set up but you had advised them and though that she would be OK. I hope tomorrow is better.

mangoandlime · 03/08/2010 21:09

I guess your DD is the best person to listen to! She'll soon let you know if she's not happy going.

Hope tomorrow is better.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 21:14

Thank you. She has been singing songs from the play all evening and telling me I'm going to love watching it on Friday so she seems to have enjoyed most of her day.

We'll see what tomorrow brings. Thanks for all your advice and opinions. I have a lot to learn.

OP posts:

dreamylady · 03/08/2010 21:15

YANBU, your DH checked it would be suitable for her, and you spoke to the teacher and explained she was shy with adults and would struggle with asking to go to the toilet - which is why you agreed to her going on this as you thought it would help her.

I am also surprised that all those adults didn't notice she wasn't eating her lunch, and would question the quality and appropriateness of their training for working with 4/5 year olds.

Its very brave of her to have wanted to go, and to want to go back tomorrow - if you can stand it then let her go again - otherwise there's a risk of her confidence being dented and maybe thinking she's not up to it. But encourage her to ask to go to the toilet, and make sure the teacher is primed to let her go whenever she asks - this itself will build her confidence.
If she doesn't want to go, express your disappointment that the adults didn't quite live up to either of your expectations, and do something fun with her instead.

Don't worry about school, if my daughter's reception is anything like hers they spend a LOT of time settling them in. The only thing i would say is that at school some children struggle with lunchtime, because its lunchtime organisers rather than teachers that are looking after them. See whether the class teachers / TAs can sit with them for the first couple of weeks, and/or buddy her up with someone she can sit with at lunchtime.

good luck.

needafootmassage · 03/08/2010 21:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Casmama · 03/08/2010 21:19

I'm sorry your poor dd was embarassed and contrary to a lot of posters on here I think you did absolutely the right thing to send her - you are encouraging her to do something she is interested in that will hopefully give her a little bit of independance and may even help her overcome her shyness a bit.
It is unfortunate that these things happened today but if your daughter is confident enough to go tomorrow I'm sure the teacher will be more attentive to her after today.
I hope she has a lovely time.

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 21:22

needafootmassage that's kind of what I thought too, especially as there would be others her age there. She goes to ballet and didn't know anyone there to start with but loves going. Obviously as ballet lasts half an hour these issues don't crop up.

dreamlady thanks for your reassurance about reception, I wasn't worried about it at all til today as she'll do half days for the first week and a half so lunch not an issue and enough time to find out about toilets.

OP posts:

Original poster

MrsDermotOleary · 03/08/2010 21:25

Thank you Casmama. We packed some spare clothes in a nice little bag ready for tomorrow although she is adamant she won't need them. I think some of the embarrassment is from having to put on someone else's knickers and trousers.

OP posts:

Colliecross · 03/08/2010 21:32

YANBU
Your poor little girl. I think the teachers/leaders were thoughtless and lazy.
They promised to shepherd little ones to the loo which is standard in any setting, then they didn't bother.
There must have been lunch time supervision, but they didn't look at the children eating/not eating. Lots of children struggle with plastic tubs, as any that don't leak are hard to open.
Their care is clearly poor quality.
However, I hope she has a happy day tomorrow.

rockinhippy · 03/08/2010 22:04

I don't think YABU at all, its not her toileting or ability to feed herself that is the issue here, but her SHYNESS, something you have already made the staff aware off, so I very much agree with the "not good at all" team

My DD has just finished a similar Dance Summer School, she's much older at 7, not at all shy, but from day 1 she had problems with 1 of the other Girls constantly verbally picking on her, & trying to knock her off kilt during sessions by bumping her & trying to trip her...........

I similarly had a word with the staff as DD was worried it was going to spoil her ability to perform in the end of School Show, as she was finding it very hard to concentrate & this girl was upsetting her & making her nervous, & sadly DD tends to attract attention from these spiteful sort of kids & it she doesn't understand it & upsets her a lot & can make her ill...........

the staff were brilliant, expressed concern wanted to know which of the Children was the problem & commented that they weren't surprised...lunch times were worst for DD, as staff as said above, though keeping an eye, were trying to eat themselves.....& there was only 2 of them & a lot of Kids......so for the rest of the week, they had asked an older, kinder natured girl to look out for DD.....ended up the whole glass looking out for her & standing up to the other girl on her behalf

So YANBU at all

ChippingIn · 04/08/2010 13:39

Hi - how was she this morning - has she gone in ??

dixiejo · 04/08/2010 15:07

YANBU
my heart goes out to your DD. i was a painfully shy child and, like ChippingIn, can remember wetting once myself in school because i was too shy to ask to go to the toilet (and i was older than your DD!). Funnily enough, though, it was joining a youth theatre group that helped me build up my confidence. i am still fairly shy but at least now i am able to project an air of confidence.
In my opinion, today's accident has nothing to do with your DD being inadaquately toilet trained and everything to do with the supervisor failing to live up to her promise that 4/5 year olds would be taken to the toilet without having to ask.
If it's any consolation, i think your DD will benefit enormously from attending the drama workshop and the confidence this will give her. I would encourage you to send her back tomorrow.

coraltoes · 04/08/2010 15:20

i have an idea, hows about you ask one of the older kids really nicely to help her with her lunch? Not the toilet, just her lunch, opeing tubs and making sure she can getto her food. Maybe this girl could also check in with DD and just say "hey you, has anyone taken you to the toilet yet?" and flag it to a teacher if not... Older children do enjoy playing mum a bit and if such a simple task i bet it will be fine.

Your DD sounds like me at her age. I remember peeing in my leotard at ballet cos i was too shy to ask for help taking it all off in the toilet.

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