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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a kiss between Henry VIII and Katherine Parr in the staged wedding at Hampton Court was a bit too much?

95 replies

GenevieveHawkings · 01/08/2010 22:52

There we were watching the re-enactment of the wedding and Henry was just kissing her hand etc - all very modest - and then they went in and had several lingering kisses on the lips in very short succession. Me and my DH were nearly exploding, I'm sure it made other people squirm as much as it did us! It was very out of place and not very authentic and of the time I feel sure. It was a bit YUK really. I suppose they could be a couple in RL...? But really, it was all a bit "get a room".

OP posts:
AlaskaNebraska · 03/08/2010 10:17

THEY KISSED OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

AlaskaNebraska · 03/08/2010 10:17

BTW any point in doing hampton court tomorrow when the forecast is rain

expatinscotland · 03/08/2010 10:35

Nope. Katherine's two sons lived. The elder one fathered over seven legitimate children by his two wives.

JaneS · 03/08/2010 10:51

And if I'm reading wiki correctly, Katherine's children by Edward Seymour passed down the duchy of Somerset from father to son until the 1880s. After that it gets passed down through younger brothers and their sons (one of whom was the president of Barnardos). The current duke is John Seymour, and it's still the same family line descended from Katherine without going further afield than sons/younger brothers. He's something like Katherine's 19-times-removed great-nephew.

(Sorry, I am geeky but it always amazes me that families can be around - and traceable - for so long!)

expatinscotland · 03/08/2010 10:58

Katherine's husband always acknowledged his sons' legitimacy, and it appears everyone else did, as they made high marriages. It's just that they were discounted from inheriting the throne (mainly because Elizabeth was really pissed off they did not get her permission to marry, although she may not have given it had they asked). They were married by a Catholic priest as well, whom Katherine was unable to trace once she revealed her late pregnancy. She had written to her husband to return home, 'as I am quick with child,' but he was unable to at first because of Cecil.

expatinscotland · 03/08/2010 11:02

At any rate, Margaret was the elder of Henry's sisters.

BitOfFun · 03/08/2010 11:06

I'm sorry, I haven't composed myself enough to read any further than Rising Damp...that image will stay with me all day

AlaskaNebraska · 03/08/2010 11:06

BTW any point in doing hampton court tomorrow when the forecast is rain

LeggyBlondeNE · 03/08/2010 11:11

expat - ah so that's what 'none left' meant! He'll have known all that, having a PhD in mid-Tudor history I expect but I did have a tendancy to ask too many questions during class!

mummytime · 03/08/2010 11:27

Alaska - yes! I've done it with school kids in the freezing cold, and its great. A little rain just reduces visitor numbers a bit, and I think its just showers.

Of course there is no point in going next week when I and DC might be there!

AlaskaNebraska · 03/08/2010 13:53

tee hee! right
we are off

expatinscotland · 03/08/2010 15:38

Seymour had referred to Katherine as his wife in a deed of jointure, but she lost it, and Jane, the only witness, died of TB shortly after their marriage.

The poor girl, Katherine, was chosen to go on progress with the Queen the summer before she gave birth in September (the Queen liked to keep her close for obvious reasons), so had to go along, heavily pregnant, trying to hide it from obviously suspicious court matrons.

JaneS · 03/08/2010 15:57

Ouch. When you think how heavy clothes were then ... poor woman.

expat, I am so enjoying everything you've said on this thread though the OP probably thinks we're nuts!

expatinscotland · 03/08/2010 16:42

It was Jane who found the priest to marry them. She was present for the wedding, then, left the couple for a couple of hours to go to bed.

It would appear Katherine conceived after just that time, for she met Jane a few hours later and the pair returned to court with no one the wiser about what Katherine had done.

As a woman of royal blood who could easily conceive and bear sons, Elizabeth may have felt a bit threatened by her.

LutyensCBA · 03/08/2010 16:55

Expat, all that about Jane Grey's sisters is very interesting. I had never really given them much thought or importance, but of course they were in line to the throne. Or at least their sons were. They must have had to have nerves of steel throughout their life. Especially considering what Elizabeth did to Mary Queen of Scots, and what Henry VIII did to the Plantangenets who (like the Greys) just had the misfortune to be of royal blood; they didn't actually plot to take the throne!

expatinscotland · 03/08/2010 18:51

Of all the Grey sisters, only Katherine had children, and she died whilst still in her 20s. There's no record of Mary having any. Mary's match was considered very low, her husband having no rank, but apparently she was not attractive, being referred to at court as 'Crookback Mary', however, she appears to have found love with Thomas Keyes.

Katherine's match, too, was a love match, the pair having fallen in love over the summer before they were married, whilst staying in Edward Seymour's mother's home.

Katherine recorded her answer to Seymour's proposal as 'I like both you and your offer. I am content to marry with you.'

That the pair loved one another was obvious to their gaolers in the Tower, as well, who allowed them to meet during their imprisonment, with Katherine quickly falling pregnant again.

Also, although considered not married, Seymour did not remarry until long after Katherine's early death. When he did, his marriage was not happy and he died still trying to get his sons legitimised.

NonnoMum · 03/08/2010 19:00

If we're playing "which of Henry's wives would you be" think I'd go for Jane Seymour.

Who'd have thought she'd be so good at Medicine and end up with her own mini-series?

expatinscotland · 03/08/2010 19:23

Especially after she'd been dead so long!

Henry was petrified of death and couldn't bear to be around it, oddly enough.

So when Jane fell ill and it became apparent she would not recover, he left.

I kid you not!

Katherine Parr berated her husband for his actions with Elizabeth shortly before she died, soaking with fever.

Elizabeth was very very sorry for her actions, being only a young teen, and apologised personally to the ill Katherine, who was the closest thing she had to a mother.

But Katherine did not hold her to blame, she being so young, and even Katherine sometimes joined in his tickling games with the girl, not realising his motives were of a different nature to hers.

She, quite rightly, blamed her husband, about whom Elizabeth said, shortly after his execution, that he was a man of 'much wit and little judgement.'

Elizabeth's reputation was much besmirched by her rather naive participation in a dalliance with Thomas, but after this she was very careful to guard her reputation.

Despite countless films about her having had sex with Dudley, there's definitely no evidence of this and all evidence points to their relationship as being, although close and very flirtatious, platonic.

Elizabeth's position was very precarious throughout her life and she never even named a successor.

Once she was so ill she was beyond the power of speech, she made a sign of a crown with her hands above her head to her nobles on her deathbed, and when asked if she meant James, she simply shook her head to indicate yes.

James, hearing of her final illness, had been taken to putting on robes of state every evening after dinner and sitting on his throne, waiting.

Three days after she died, a rider, still muddy from his journey, swept into the throne room, the ring in his hands all that was needed to gain entry, and dropped to one knee in front of James, presenting the ring in his palm.

TheOldestCat · 03/08/2010 19:32

Ah, interesting stuff.

I'd also be Anna of Cleves. Anyone read Amenable Women ? It's ace.

GenevieveHawkings · 04/08/2010 11:59

History is fascinating - it's lovely to see that my post has sparked such an intersting histocial discussion!

The memory is fading somewhat now BTW.

Just to put you in the picture, here is a clip to show you the sort of thing we saw. The actors we saw were different though - the guy playing Henry was older and the woman playing Katherine was younger and looked a good 20 years younger than the guy playing Henry!

Henry VIII and Katherine Parr

OP posts:
Poledra · 04/08/2010 12:05

Well, it's more historically accurate that way - Catherine Parr was about 31 when she married Henry, who would have been about 53.

midnightexpress · 04/08/2010 12:09

Katherine Howard was, by all accounts, a bit of a slapper. Or at least she was playing away from home whilst married to Henry. Which is, if you ask me, plain dumb, given his record to that point.

MiladyDeSummer · 04/08/2010 12:27

In the third series of The Tudors (forgive me serious MNers) she is certainly portrayed as dull-witted in the extreme.

Poor girl was raised in a sort of orphanage for illegitimate children of the aristocracy where there was a licentious atmosphere.

This thread is fantastic

expatinscotland · 04/08/2010 13:26

'Which is, if you ask me, plain dumb, given his record to that point.'

Katherine Howard was, at a max, about 17 when she married Henry, possibly only that old at the time of her execution, her birthdate being not entirely able to determine, as was the case with many females in that time, even for noblewomen, as she was at birth.

She was brought up mostly in the home of her grandmother, who was known to be notoriously lax in her guidlines.

She was also woefully ignorant and under-educated. Her extant letters are all appallingly spelled and barely literate.

expatinscotland · 04/08/2010 13:30

Most of the wards in her grandmother's house were other grandchildren or other relatives of Norfolk's very large family who could not afford to support their offspring.

Katherine's father was a second son of a duke, and because of primogenature was never well off.

Having too many sons could be a very bad thing, as also evinced by the Neville family.