to think that community service should not be about humiliation?

[lecce]

We went for a walk in a local park today and I was shocked to see lots of people gardening in bright orange jackets that said, in huge letters, COMMUNITY PAYBACK.

I thought it unecessary and inappropriate. Why should the public see that? Why should such people have to endure people staring and, I should imagine, comments being made by some people?

If people feel humiliated then surely that is far more likely to lead to their feeling angry and defensive rather than remorseful. If punishment is supposed to be partly about rehabilitation then I do not see that humiliation has a part to play at all.

Moreover, it is simply no one's business who is a convict and what their punishment is. It made me feel really uncomfortable, reminding me of The Scarlet Letter, Dunce hats and other old-fashioned and, I had thought, obsolete practices.

Oh, and I dont like the word 'payback' either, what was wrong with 'service'?

Well not humiliation, but punishment.

And surely the 'warden' or who ever is there must be able to see at a glance which people are under his care and which are the public?

Its just a way to punish, petty criminals WOULD find it humiliating to wear it - so whats wrong with detering them from a crime by it?

Well, if you don't like the punishment, don't do the crime. If having to hang around a local park in a bright orange outfit stops even one yob doing something prattish, I'm all for it.

YABU - They committed a criminal act so should payback the community by doing such community service.

There'd be no real punishment if the judge said "well I don't think what you did was that bad but maybe if you'd like to go and plant some flowers in the park each weekend, wearing whatever you like for as long as you like that would be great"

I'm sure strip searches and cavity checks in prison are 'humiliating' too, so should they not be done?

Well how will we distinguish between those doing it for a punishment and those doing it as volunteers to be part of Cameron's Big Society?

I don't particularly agree with the orange jackets but I don't think this activity should be presented as a punishment if we want people to volunteer and enjoy gardening.

the way British law works is that not only must Justice BE done it must be SEEN to be done.

so if people are made aware of the fact that there are people out there doing reparation work or community service then they can see justice in action. they know that the system is working to make sure these people pay for their crimes.

Those who volunteer to assist in these schemes or who help out in other projects will not be wearing hi-vis jackets so will not get mistaken.

YABU. I'm sure they people they've committed crimes against felt humiliated and vulnerable too. Once you've chosen to take away another human's rights, I believe you forefeit your own right to complain about wearing a uniform that labels you as a criminal.

*the people, not they people.

yabu
the whole point of it is it is a punishment

Were people pointing and commenting?

I have never noticed this. I don't think it's all that humiliating, tbh. It could certainly be much worse if it was supposed to be vindictive.

YABU and what Mowgli said.

YABU - public humiliation is the price you pay for not going to prison - and accepting it is part of the price that we woolly liberals pay for keeping the Daily Mail tendency quiet.

IMO there's a desperate need for community service to be accepted by the public as a "real" punishment - otherwise we just end up with more and more people in prison for short sentences that destroy lives and families and do no-one any good.

I don't think it's there to humiliate them, I think it's there for the public to see that they are doing some good. I bet they get just as many positive comments as negative. Also, it is maybe so that people don't assume they're from the local council and start moaning to them about all sorts of other issues.

Welll this is depressing so far.

A few people have mentioned that it would be a deterrent but shouldn't community service be that anyway? Isn't having to give up your time and take part in activities of no interest to you enough? Anyway, as we know the whole business of deterrents is a complex one otherwise our prisons wouldn't be full.

Lifeina, I agree with community service, just not the jackets. The judge wouldn't say that would he? As I said they have to do so many hours, not done at their own convenience, obviously, and I bet most are not keen gardeners. That is a punishment. IMO, humiliation should not be part of the justice system.

Gigantaur, not sure what you mean. We don't run exursions to prisons so people can gawp self-rightously do we? I certainly didn't think, "great justice in action"; I thought, "shit, I've gone back in time 200 years."

Mowgli, if we think punishment is about taking away people's human rights then we are doomed. "It's ok because that's what they did to their victim" Really? Shit.

I think 'community payback' shows there is a punishment being enforced whereas 'community service' could be seen as a voluntary act. Honestly, a little bit of humiliation may make then think next time.

I certainly do NOT believe that "it's ok because that's what they did to their victim". You've inaccurately quoted me. What I said was, "I believe you forefeit your own right to complain about wearing a uniform that labels you as a criminal " Not that you forefeit all your rights to be treated as a human being. That would, as you say, be "shit".

They are there to be punished! Humiliation is part of that punishement. Big society, showing others what a scumbag you are and hopefully they will be shamed into never doing it again.
Too soft on low grade criminals in this country, no wonder they think it's a good life on the inside

Its not taking away someones human rights to dress them in an orange coat. It is community payback, they are being forced to payback society as opposed to serving the community in the same way a volunteer would.
Whoever is supervising them needs to see at a glance who is there if anyone has absconded. They are also part of a team which is an important factor in rehabilitating petty criminals.
Part of breaking the law means that you are on the edge and you are not going to be treated with the same reverence as a Chelsea Pensioner. Understanding that how you behave changes how you are treated is a big step forward for the young criminal who has never had a real consequence before.
I think a bit of humiliation can be a good thing in detering petty crime as a lot of it is caused be showing off and general twattery. Being humiliated is a good deterent against some crimes.

It also sends a message to would-be criminals that it's not something to aspire to and you don't get rich quick through robbery or drug dealing or mugging etc. The fashion of low hanging trousers showing off your pants is mirroring the US prison inmates attire - they have their belts confiscated. Wow, I really want my ds to copy criminals clothes .

Sorry Mowgli, I flew off the handle a bit there, probably because no one agrees with me!

I still don't agree with labelling people though. Fran, I fear the result will be the opposite. IME demeaning people does not bring put the best in them, rather the worst. They will feel anger rather than remorse, I think.

I don't see why the community needs to see, on an individual level, what is being done. Surely there are statistics available if people want to know how many people are being caught and punished, and how.

It's laughable that you consider it a punishment for someone to do some gardening if they don't like it!!! Diddums. I'll save my sympathy for the victims of crime, not the perpetrators.

leece x posts! Let's agree to disagree! I sound militant because my sister has worked with petty criminals who deliberately reoffend as they have a structured life inside whereas in the real world they have to fend for themselves.

I don't want the justice system to be about punishment. I want it to be about reducing crime. If very mild humiliation will do that, go for it, if it just makes people who aren't going to offend feel smug then don't.