to think that community service should not be about humiliation?

[lecce]

We went for a walk in a local park today and I was shocked to see lots of people gardening in bright orange jackets that said, in huge letters, COMMUNITY PAYBACK.

I thought it unecessary and inappropriate. Why should the public see that? Why should such people have to endure people staring and, I should imagine, comments being made by some people?

If people feel humiliated then surely that is far more likely to lead to their feeling angry and defensive rather than remorseful. If punishment is supposed to be partly about rehabilitation then I do not see that humiliation has a part to play at all.

Moreover, it is simply no one's business who is a convict and what their punishment is. It made me feel really uncomfortable, reminding me of The Scarlet Letter, Dunce hats and other old-fashioned and, I had thought, obsolete practices.

Oh, and I dont like the word 'payback' either, what was wrong with 'service'?

Lecce, why don't you go and work or volunteer for the prison service and then come and tell us if you still think they are all huggy wuggy people?

They should be glad that they are doing gardening and not in some boot camp or in a quarry smashing up rocks.

Millions of people all over the world have to do much more humiliating things and they are just trying to survive.

Scumbags deserve no sympathy and the public need to see justice being done, figures can be fiddled and don't mean anything.

Figures mean everything, what is seen to be done means fuck all. If you would rather have theater without ant concrete results go to the west end.

Well it is a punishment, not the gardening as such, but the lack of freedom of how to spend your time, what to do and when to do it. I would hate to be told, "You have to do x activity, on x day for x amount of hours." Of course it is right that they be punished. Of course I feel sympathy for those who have been the victims of crime, I have suffered from petty crime myself, several times.

I just do not feel comfortable with the idea that punishment is there to cause humiliation. What about education, raising aspirations etc as the way to prevent crime? If you make people feel ostracised and humiliated they are not going to feel like they want to be a part of the community, are they?

I used to do that sort of work in order to support my family. I didn't feel like it most days either. So just saying making them do it is enough of a punishment doesn't really work.

Aside from the jacket it isn't actually a punishment at all. It's called 'going to work' and most people have to do it even though they never committed a crime.

Ripeberry, what on earth are you on about? Where did I say the prison service is all 'huggy wuggy', whatever that is? Is our justice system supposed to be (partly)about rehabilitation or reducing people to the state that the poorest people in the world are in? What a strange comparison to draw.

And I totally agree with coalition re your last point. My walk in the park today has given me no real idea of what is being done, how many people are involved and for how long etc. As to how effective it is, well it gives me no evidence on that at all.

I think the reasons they committed the crime in the first place have a lot more to do with their inability to become part of the community. I agree, humiliating someone isn't the way to go. But the problems go way deeper. I teach on a fairly rough council estate and some of the brightest, most personable pupils have become petty criminals because of their social background, lack of ambition and money, but mostly due to drug and alcohol abuse. It's a vicious circle.

I sympathise with you lecce - I think it is a very fair point that the punishment is losing quite a lot of your time - how many of us would want to have to do 40 hour weeks for no pay ?

"I sound militant because my sister has worked with petty criminals who deliberately reoffend as they have a structured life inside whereas in the real world they have to fend for themselves."

I think you're right Mowgli that is the crux of the problem - a high proportion of petty (and other) offenders are people who can't cope in society - punishing them is not going to help us, figuring out a way that they can function in society is going to be far more to the point.

I'd much rather that a drug dependent petty criminal was given treatment & job training which might stop them burgling my house in the future, rather than that they were punished in a humiliating way that makes them feel at odds with society, and hence more justified in going out & committing the next crime.

Totally agree, Mowgli, that the reasons for crime are deep-rooted and to do with the criminal's place in society. I too teach in quite a deprived area and have been depressed many times to see bright, promising students ending up involved in petty crime. The answer has got to be something more meaningful than an orange jacket that makes them feel less, not more, a part of the community.

Sadly, they probably don't feel that humiliated. I expect some of them would be quite happy to be seen wearing the jackets for the same reason that criminals sometimes give more status to those that have done prison sentences. I understand your point about it possibly making them more angy at society, but if they find it that awfully humiliating to wear an orange jacket, then that should act as enough deterrent.

I mean really, is it that bad? Possibly a bit embarrasing, yes, but totally humiliating, no. Let's face it, when they chose to commit the crime, they ran the risk of having to take whatever punishment they got.

They don't really work for no pay. They have to be on benefits to be doing 40 hours of community service a week, right?

given treatment & job training which might stop them burgling my house in the future>>

That might work - oh wait though. Why should they work when they can just walk into any house and take what they want?

I don't think giving them a bit of light work is going to stop them doing it again either. I vote for cutting off a hand for each crime. That tends to limit repeat offences.

Fuck off to Saudi then.

Do you know anyone who has ever done Community Service, Onagar? I do, and the person concerned isn't on benefits, and had to pay for childcare while they did the work. Oh, and if you knew the backstory to why they had offended, you might possibly even feel a little sympathy.

Or maybe you'd rather just cut their hand off?

I'm also hoping that all the people on here who want to 'send messages', 'punish' and 'humiliate' others have never, ever, broken the speed limit/parked on a yellow line/taken any illegal drugs etc.

You can some some adulterers while you're there.

Stone some even.

If they are doing 40 hours each week then it's reasonable to suppose they are unemployed. Otherwise it would be less hours for a longer period.

I'm supposed to be sympathetic to criminals? yeah right. Cos they couldn't help it could they. They have 'compulsive stealing old ladies purses syndrome' because they were not breastfed enough or they have low self esteem issues.

Well tough. All the punishments are voluntary. If you don't commit the crime you don't do the punishment so get over it. Community service is very nearly no punishment at all. Most of us have to work at things we are not that keen on even when we are not in the mood.

Takver, speeding and parking illegally carry their own punishments. People who have to carry out community service are generally considered to have committed more serious crime.

Onagar - your not meant to feel sympathy for the criminals, you are meant to feel sufficient sympathy for the victims to put aside your selfish medieval desire for revenge if it gets in the way of reducing the number of victims.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou, telling me to fuck off to saudi was fairly predictable. Surely you can do better than that.

I can assure you that cutting off hands (or heads) prevents repeat crimes while 'telling them off' doesn't. This 'be nice to them and they will be nice back' is great for children's bedtime stories, but doesn't work in the real world where the rest of us have to live.

Community service is only what most law abiding people do every day anyway. Why should doing it just for a little while be a punishment? and how on earth can any sane person think it is too harsh a punishment.

Oh and you misunderstood about revenge too. If I wanted revenge I'd be talking about much worse things. My position is partly about deterrent, but mostly about making sure they are not physically able to do it again.

I favour execution for most repeat offences as that works in 100% of cases.

What I don't favour is patting the criminal's 'inner child' on the head and giving it a sweetie

I just think if you advocate torture and murder as ways of reducing crime you would be more comfortable somewhere that view isn't considered fundamentally uncivilized. You might find you don't like some of the other things torturers and murderers are in favour of though.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" Ghandi. I favour deterrent and punishment; In theory I believe in the death penalty, but couldn't put another human being to death. I think common sense has gone out of the window in the justice system. It's time judges were able to say "You've done X, your punishment is Y."

I'm sorry but how can anyone say they don't agree with labelling people? No matter how you word it it's still a label. Criminal, offender, person who may have had a tough up bringing so has turned to less desirable habits.

It is revenge. That can be the only motivation for punishment that doesn't contribute to prevention. We tried the bloody code before. Didn't work. Convictions go down, so criminals know that they are less likely to face any consequences.

Don't have to go to Saudi to find a culture that accepts killing and maiming as methods of achieving aims

This culture (here in the UK) accepts war as a means to an end even though that means killing non combatants. Much worse than what I'm advocating as at least I'd only execute those who committed a crime in the full knowledge of the punishment that came with it.