to think that community service should not be about humiliation?

[lecce]

We went for a walk in a local park today and I was shocked to see lots of people gardening in bright orange jackets that said, in huge letters, COMMUNITY PAYBACK.

I thought it unecessary and inappropriate. Why should the public see that? Why should such people have to endure people staring and, I should imagine, comments being made by some people?

If people feel humiliated then surely that is far more likely to lead to their feeling angry and defensive rather than remorseful. If punishment is supposed to be partly about rehabilitation then I do not see that humiliation has a part to play at all.

Moreover, it is simply no one's business who is a convict and what their punishment is. It made me feel really uncomfortable, reminding me of The Scarlet Letter, Dunce hats and other old-fashioned and, I had thought, obsolete practices.

Oh, and I dont like the word 'payback' either, what was wrong with 'service'?

Most crimes are committed by the same criminals. Therefore once you disable or kill them you prevent the 100s of crimes they were going to commit.

There was a case recently where someone was let out of prison and stole a car to get home. Says all you need to know about so called rehabilitation.

thye dont wear jackets around here any more

the hting is PEOPLE CAN REFUSE TO DO IT
and if they do - they gointo custody that is £££

( its called UNPAID WORK now)
c/service was YEARS ago

What about prevention, Onagar? Can you not see the point in looking at the reasons that people commit crimes and trying to address some of these issues? What a terribly negative view of humanity you have. How depressing for you.

Mowgli, what do judges do now then?

its not always about punichement though is it?
FOr some offenders its the ONLY piece of work they have ever completed, for some it gives them an amazing boost - pride in what they CAN do and often motivated tehm back to work

you really need to know a little bit about it to have a good idea.
of course the whole thing is starved of funds and that really restricts what probation can do.

If any of you ahev any projects that need doing, approach your local probation office and suggest it. Unpaid work totally revamped a scout hut ( INside and out) near us over a year

lol at eye for eye
its not master criminals doing unpaid work! its people like your brother who got too drunk and hit someone when he was out, or your alcoholic sister who cant remember not to drink and drive, or the youth who causes criminal damage

you dont do 40 ours a week too! its done in chunks of 7 hrs according to you work patterns. peopel with leave can try and do a week to get it down.
the min is about 40 and the max is 240 hrs
if you divide that into 7 hr chunks that is a lot of days off!

Onagar - yes it says we should try and do some rehabilitation, instead of just locking people up.

Onagar - war is not a way of trying to persuade your population to respect the social contract. Where the rhetoric has been used for that as in the war on drugs it's been a total fucking disaster

"Can you not see the point in looking at the reasons that people commit crimes and trying to address some of these issues?"

Oh yes! poverty, poor education etc etc. All that should be addressed and funds allocated to make a real difference.

But when you have someone in court for say the third time it's no use saying "don't do it again" because you tried that before and here they are.

Victims have rights too. The right to enjoy their life without fear is one of them.

When I first posted on this I was just putting it dramatically to make a point. I don't favour cutting bits off people really.

Also I wouldn't do anything drastic to anyone for the first offence. The first time might be their last. Rehabilitation might work for someone who just made a mistake and feels remorse.

My proposed punishment would be a quick and painless death and only for those who come back again and again. This would be entirely voluntary.

The judge would say "look this is your last chance. Next time we take you through that door there and inject you. So only commit another crime if you WANT to die ok?"

They are there for a reason, because they have committed a crime, thats what you get when you break the law, totally agree sorry!

What human rights lecce, the jackets do not take away any human rights fgs. You would not be saying that if YOU were the victim of a crime that one of these in the hi vis jackets committed. We are not talking about children here, but adults who have committed crimes, they knew what they were doing when they robbed or mugged or assaulted someone, when they took away the victims rights, they should be punished.

There are non criminal volunteers who do similar work those who serve their time doing community work, why should these criminals be allowed to blend in with innocent people doing community work!

YABU.

Please don't tell me what I would say in certain circumstances. I have been the victim of crime and would not advocate the use of these jackets for the perpetrators. I know they're not children, what has that got to do with it?

Onca again, yes, there does need to be a punishment but why should this involve humiliation?

What is acheived by their not blending in? They feel more alienated and therefore more likely to reoffend. You talk as if they are sub-human. I do know they have committed crimes but I do still think they have certain rights.

onagar, I think you are nuts. Even in victorian times it was recongised that having hanging for over 200 offenses did not work. How would you feel if your child was excuted for a repeat offence?

It meant that someone mind commit murder to avoid being caught for stealing a piece of bread. In the days for hanging for almost any offence there was just as much crime.

A rapist would be insane not to murder their victim if the they were going to be hanged.

I have no idea what is the best way of punishing offenders. Its complex.

Onagar - and what happens then is that conviction rates for the last chance plummets as juries and judges don't WANT to kill someone for a minor offence, and so undermine any deterrent effect. Same as in the States, criminals don't have to worry too much about parole violations as there isn't enough space to send them back to prison.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Code

Why should they not stand out, they have committed a crime and that's part of their punishment. So what! They have chosen by committing a crime to set themselves out from the rest of the law obiding citizens. As I said you are talking about them as if they are children and are vulnerable and defenceless and we should cut them some slack and feel sorry for them, these are adults who chose to commit a crime so therefore it has consequences such as wearing those jackets whilst doing community service. Perhaps the thought of humiliation might put them off committing a crime in the future.

As I keep saying. If you try to humiliate them they wil simply
refuse to do it and go for s short prison term instead

Is there any evidence that the mild humiliation of wearing hi-vis jackets while doing Community service reduces offending? Because if there is we should do it, and if there isn't we shouldn't.

If there isn't why not? It is very simple to run a study to determine this.

I think the orange jackets is to warn potential offenders and to inform the general public that people are being punished by serving their community. The offender gets to be out in the fresh air and enjoying relative freedom which has to be better than prison. Our judicial system serves the whole community and not just those penalised, I think it's good.

I think the jackets are to say 'LOOK! We are doing something about crime! Now don't worry yourselves about if it will work or not, it's more important that you be impressed by the fact that we are doing SOMETHING! ANYTHING!'

"When you commit a crime you set yourself aside from society. "
I can't better Alaska's point here:
"its people like your brother who got too drunk and hit someone when he was out, or your alcoholic sister who cant remember not to drink and drive"

I was thinking about this one last night - I feel pretty strongly about driving offences (speeding, parking on yellow lines making it impossible to cycle safely etc). So, we could for example have a rule that anyone who commits a driving offence has to have orange lines painted on their car (or stick on magnetic ones) so that everyone could see.

Given that 'respectable' people often commit car crimes, the humiliation aspect might be even more to the point. So I was trying to decide if I thought it would be a good idea. I still don't think it is really, I'd much rather that people were (as they are I believe) obliged to go on repeat driving courses, sessions about the dangers of speeding/see videos of parents whose children were killed etc, or for repeat offenders have to have a speed limiter on their car (I know that doesn't happen now).

onagar...execution works in 100% of the cases...isn't that just becuase the dead can't reoffend?! quite a niche statistic there.

I am totally anti corporal punishment. You only need to see the abuses of justice around the world where such systems exist to realise the real impact of such a punishment. i do however believe that a crime should be adequately punished not only so the victim has the comfort that their suffering was for nothing, but also to make the perpetrator think "shit...this really was a mistake, i hate doing this community service/prison sentence/ whatever and need to sort myself out". We have to make people feel the consequences of their actions, and i really believe a bit of community work is a positive way of making that happen.

As for chopping hands off etc...well that is plain bonkers.