to hate the, ''the baby could be adopted'' argument.

[vosene]

Having read the quite lengthy thread on whether the abortion limit should be lowered (I think it's fine at 24 weeks incidentally) I just wanted to vent a little about one particular point. Whenever I've debated the issue of abortion with either the completely pro-life or simply people who want to limit the abortion criteria, the same issue continually comes up: why can't they just put the baby up for adoption instead?

Now, I've had personal experience with this because an anti-abortion family member put their child up for adoption and seemed almost idealistic about the kind of life that child would then lead. However, my friend who has adopted 2 children herself and is a social worker would tell you otherwise.

So many people seem to be under the illusion that EVERYBODY in the UK wants to adopt a gorgeous little newborn and that there are seemingly people queuing around the block to become adoptive parents. Do we honestly believe that this is true? Do they not understand how long is takes for people to be vetted and approved? Agencies are absolutely crying out for people to adopt children, but unfortunately most of those children aren't little 'untainted' babies, they're young kids with serious problems. People only want the babies because once kids get past a 'certain age', they're practically discarded on the adoptive rubbish heap. Is that fair?

How many of you actually know people with adopted children? I only know one- my friend, and I know rather a lot of people with children.

It makes my blood boil that in a similar way to people that fecklessly use abortion as a back up for their inability to ever use contraception (although I do think this is uncommon), other people will justify removing a woman's right to abortion by saying that the baby can be adopted.

My friend has told me how most young babies are actually passed from foster parent to foster parent in the first few months/ year of their life before they'll even get a chance to be adopted. For the unlucky, they just move on into care.

So, whilst I'm aware of just how emotive this issue is, AIBU to think:

1)Putting your child up for adoption is probably just as difficult as having an abortion and is not a somehow easier or 'better' option.

2)To assume that your child will be lucky and will be adopted by a kind, loving family is misguided and unfair on the child.

3. That most people using the 'adoption' argument against abortion are simply unwilling to accept that not many families in this country (or in many countries for that matter) actually want to adopt because they can have their own children instead.

If the abortion limit was lowered and this adoption solution was proposed instead, we would see the number of kids being fostered or in care go through the roof, and I doubt very much that the numbers of 'prospective parents' would actually increase as well.

I agree with you entirely.

Really? I know quite a few adopted people and adopted children and there is no passing from pillar to post going on. Yes there is a lot of vetting but that will have already taken place by the time a baby becomes 'available'. I know several couples that are waiting and there are no newborns. I also know another couple of families who have taken on 3 and 4 children all from the same families, all with behavioural issues, a couple of the children with special needs and they are doing a fantastic job with them.

I think that, accepting that what I have said above is anecdotal and doesn't really prove anything, the same could be said for your post. You paint a very bleak picture that is not my experience.

YANBU.

I am adopted, and I've also had an abortion.

I've said on here before, that no way could I have carried on with my life if I'd had the baby adopted.
It's naive to think all my neighbours, and family and then 5yr old would have thought I was doing a wonderful thing and just let me go back to my life after, even if I could have, and what about all those people I don't 'know', but see on a regular basis, when they congratulate me on my pregnancy, or ask DD if she's hoping for a brother or sister.
I live in a small town and the whispering would have never gone away. My family aren't very supportive either.

And what about in 18 years when the child I didn't want turns up and I have to tell them I don't want them all over again, breaking their heart and going through the nightmare all over again?

An abortion can be kept secret.

As for always being adopted by a wonderful family. Yeah right.
My Mum never told me she loved me, never cuddled me just for the sake of it, and never seemed interested after the age of about 10.
I once asked her why she adopted when she couldn't have a second child, as being a parent never seemed high up on her list of priorities.

There are hundreds of people who would like to adopt a new baby.

I know six people who have adopted. I think it is totally wrong to say not many families want to adopt because they can have their own

I can see no reason for allowing an abortion, made only on the grounds of choice, at 24 weeks. I don't know why anyone would wait that long. It would be traumatic for mother and baby. Either adoption or more practical help with whatever issues are standing between them keeping their baby would be better.

wow - I know people who are already vetted but waiting for a baby. I was under the impression most children are passed from foster care to foster care as their parents haven't choosen to give them up for adoption, and it takes time for the legal requirements to be met before a child can be adopted without parental consent. (Which is why if SS take a newborn, that baby could be 18 months before they are able to be adopted)

It's completely different if a mother decides during pregancy to give her baby up for adoption.

That said, I do believe in the right to abort, tempered with more information (and more efficient services) for adoption.

in the post-20 weeks abortion argument i think that adoption is a completely red herring. a post-20 weeks abortion is likely to be for a disability or 'defect' which will either limit life or affect life in an ongoing way. these babies will almost definitely not have a happy ever after adoption stories.

'I can see no reason for allowing an abortion, made only on the grounds of choice, at 24 weeks. I don't know why anyone would wait that long. It would be traumatic for mother and baby. Either adoption or more practical help with whatever issues are standing between them keeping their baby would be better.'

Some people don't discover they are pregnant until quite late - they have irregular periods, are using contraception that stops periods, are overweight and can't tell, etc. - others could be frightened and in denial, perhaps raped or very young.

And women are not incubators. They are human beings with the right to control their reproduction as they see fit.

There is a shortage of adoptive families in the UK. However, there is not a shortage of families willing/wanting to adopt babies, on the contrary there is (and has been for about 30 years) a shortage of babies available for adoption.

The reason some babies spend time in temporary foster care is usually because they have not yet been released for adoption. SS (quite rightly) do not want to place a baby with adoptive parents "permanently" and then have to remove him if the adoption papers are not signed. Some of these babies may have been removed at birth, because of very serious child-protection issues relating to earlier/older children. But there is due legal process to go through before they can be formally adopted.

Wrt your questions:
1)YANBU Putting your child up for adoption is very difficult and brings its own issues, not least carrying a pregnancy to full term.

2)YABU If you feel unwilling to bring up a child at that time, or feel financially unable to do so, I think it is fair to assume that a family who have longed for a child and have been to considerable lengths to adopt a child may well be in a better position to parent at that stage.

3. YABU. There is a shortage of babies available for adoption in this country at present.

I'm not seriously suggesting - and no-one would - that a high percentage of current abortions could/should be replaced by full-term births and adoptions. But in some cases it could be an option. I don't think your arguments are sound.

I agree with the OP. If I found myself with an unwanted pregnancy I would opt for abortion (and I would not find that an easy choice at all). There is no way I could carry a baby for 9 months, watching my daughter's get excited, and then hand that baby over for adoption only to spend the rest of our lives wondering what happened to the child and waiting for the letter/knock on the door from the child I gave up, no way. Not to mention I come from a Catholic Family (I don't share their beliefs) and my husband's father is Indian (VERY family orientated) that they would allow a child to be given up and us to go back to normal, no way on this earth would that happen.

So for me, an abortion, although an incredibly difficult decision, would be my only option as it could be done in complete secrecy to the rest of our family and the loss would be mine and my husband's alone to deal with.

I don't think it's as easy a solution as some people seem to think either.

My birth mother has been affected long term by the experience of giving away her baby.

I have been affected by the issues about feeling unwanted and disconnected.

My brother, adopted separately, has also been affected.

My adoptive parents may have been desperate to adopt but they didn't show affection so we didn't feel very connected to them either.

They seem to have problems of their own, maybe some of them caused by us not being like the son and daughter they had hoped for, or it not feeling how they expected it to feel (although this can be true of having your own children too).

Some bad things happened when we were children and we've struggled with our feelings, but would never having existed have been preferable? I don't know the answer to that, as I have a nice life now.

I'm adopted and I really don't mean to be rude but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You also seem to be basing a lot of your opinions on information you have received from a friend whose experience of adoption bears no relation to the current model of concurrency which is used in dealing with newborn adoptions.

I find it hard to believe that someone could be 24 weeks pregnant and not know. I don't think it is something you could do in secret at 24 weeks. I know of a young woman who had an abortion at 22 weeks and she has been traumatised. I am sure there are a few exceptional circumstances but in general I think it is just way too late. Having my self delivered a baby at this stage and seen that it is a baby.

My baby died in the womb at this stage and I delivered it. To think that someone would choose to do this is hard to accept. To think that they would be able to accept this over having a baby and keeping it or putting it up for adoption is unbelievable to me.

I am sure there are a few individual cases where there are extreme circumstances but I personally think it is too late.

I agreed before I was pg, and having been through two (normal, wanted) pgs I agree even more.

Aside from anything else, pg is a huge trauma for the body, and actually the third trimester is the worst. People seem to just dismiss this altogether when they argue for adoption rather than abortion.

And arguing that the baby might have some slim chance of surviving outside the womb is not terribly relevant - no one is offering an induction at 23 weeks with the baby then being put up for adoption!

Of course choosing to adopt a baby must be an incredibly hard decision - I can't imagine the turmoil of doing that as I sit here with a 9 month old baby kicking inside me.

However, I can not imagine choosing to end that little one's life either.

'I find it hard to believe that someone could be 24 weeks pregnant and not know.'

Obtaining an abortion in the late 2nd trimester is not as easy as you'd think.

What commonly happens is the person discovers she is pregnant at say, 20 weeks, then has to spend another 4 obtaining the abortion.

And it is more common than you think to get to that stage of pregnancy and not know, particularly, again, if you are overweight, peri/menopausal, using contraception that stops periods or have suffered a traumatic incident such as rape.

Also, a common cause of such late terminations is that a disability has been discovered, particularly if the woman has had an amniocentesis - there is a wait time of up to a fortnight for results.

'My baby died in the womb at this stage and I delivered it. To think that someone would choose to do this is hard to accept. To think that they would be able to accept this over having a baby and keeping it or putting it up for adoption is unbelievable to me.'

This is why, thankfully, one person's own personal experiences aren't allowed to determine policy.

I did it in secret at 23 weeks and didn't know until I was 19 weeks, it does happen.

I told my best friend, who disowned me, and my bf who of course I wanted to tell.
I also told a friend at the other end of the country who I knew would be supportive.

I could have done it just telling my BF though.

I agree that having an abortion (which can be kep secret)is, for the majority of women seemingly, a more attractive way out of an unwanted pregnancy than keeping the baby and having it adopted. I cannot see the current status quo ever changing.
Personally however the choice as I see it is between a dead baby and a live baby - I know which one I would choose. Regardless of the potential (although unlikely) trials and tribulations the baby may endure under the care system, I don't see abortion as a form of child protection.

My mother was young and too scared to accept that she was pregnant. She tried to deny it to herself or just think everything would be ok and avoid thinking of all the consequences. By the time she was able to let people know the truth it was too late for an abortion.

I'm wondering which option would have been more traumatic, having a later abortion or the adoption. I think both would have been emotionally scarring and it really doesn't seem to be clear to me which option would have been easier for her. I visualise her in each situation and feel awful for her in both.

Maybe there just isn't a clear cut answer to what is right and wrong in a lot of situations even though we want there to be.

Often it can seem clear that one way is right and one way is wrong when you haven't been involved in the situations you are talking about, but then you experience something and feel differently. This happened to me in an unrelated situation where I thought I had strong and definite views, then I was involved in it and felt completely differently. It showed me that you can't be sure you are right and will always feel the same way.

Mugglewump I am sorry you have suffered this. I don't want to make judgements on others but I just feel it is an awfully traumatic thing to go through. And should be avoided in as many circumstances as possible.

When I was 23 weeks I needed doors widened to get through them. I cant imagine not knowing at 19 weeks.

We all have different experiences and different views on here. I would hate it if
mine caused anyone any hurt.

"I've said on here before, that no way could I have carried on with my life if I'd had the baby adopted."

some research shows that this is a really common view - that women would prefer to end the pregnancy than know that a baby of theirs is out in the world and they're not taking care of it. I completely understand that.

YANBU.

The argument also doesn't take into account the fact that pregnancy has a huge impact on a woman and her body. It's not like you just wait 9 months, out it pops and on you go with your life!

If you've never seen it, this is fascinating I think:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violinist_%28thought_experiment%29

Of course it was traumatic, but less so than adoption would have been. I had my 5yr old to think of too.
It's behind me now and I have no regrets.

I honestly didn't know, I didn't know about my second pregnancy either until I mc at 8 weeks. I have symptom free pregnancies, and with that one, I had no periods because I had a mirena coil, only put on 5lb, and my weight fluctuates by that much anyway, and as a size 6-8 at the time, I didn't show at all until 20 weeks, and of course I knew about it by then.
It was easy to hide though because I wasn't very big at all.

With DD I was in my ordinary clothes until later than that.

I've since been sterilised, have an implant and do pregnancy tests if I'm having sex.

"2)To assume that your child will be lucky and will be adopted by a kind, loving family is misguided and unfair on the child."

I am adoptive parent and more than anything else in your argument I take issue with this simplistic statement. No, not because I am defending adoptive parents in a defensive way but because I think it underestimates the trauma felt by all adopted children to a greater or lesser extent.

We are a "kind and loving family" in my opinion and I ache with love for my son and concern for his welfare and happiness, however as an adoptive parent I need to give our son a lot more than love to help him grow into a well adjusted adult.

The first and greatest loss for an adopted child is the separation between mother and child which breaks the precious bond of attachment between a child and the one who gave him birth. This means that even a child who was reliquished carries this psychological trauma for the rest of their lives. So even if a child is not in care due to child protection issues s/he is still a traumatised individual. The bond has been broken. This leads to attachment difficulties which require a careful and well researched form of parenting to manage.

Of course love and care, and meeting a child's basic needs are vitally important. However so is a willingness to understand a child's birth history and explain it to them in an age appropriate way, and a willingness to seek specialist help to deal with the early trauma. This loss, despite the most loving of homes does not ever leave the child.

With regards to the abortion question, I never have and never will carry a child. I therefore feel that my emotive response to abortion is something that should be kept in the privacy of my own heart and as someone said earlier, not expected to influence policy. I have a friend whose baby was born at 22 weeks and is now a healthy 2 yr old, I also have a friend whose 21 week old baby boy died an hour after birth, I have a friend whose abortion happened as a result of a teenage error of judgement and one whose abortion was recommended at 20 weeks for medical reasons.

Carrying a baby to term (when you don't want to, when your mental and/or physical health will be affected, when your family life and home life and work life will be affected), labouring, birthing, and then going home and picking up where you left off... sounds easy peasy.

Less than 2% of abortions are carried out after 20 weeks (almost 90% are performed before 16 weeks) - and besides terminations for disabilities, the women who choose to terminate at that stage are often very vulnerable and fragile, and often haven't presented to medical authorities earlier either because they haven't known about the pregnancy and/or have been in self-denial and/or or live very chaotic lives. We're not talking about women who rock up at 23 weeks requesting a termination because they've got a last-minute holiday planned and don't want to be pregnant in their bikini.

Roobie - In some ways, abortion can be a form of child protection. Distasteful as it might sound, if you?re carrying a baby you don?t want that you feel forced into carrying that you know you?re going to be giving away, how much care are you going to be taking in pregnancy ? about what you eat, how much alcohol you drink, whether you take the correct vitamins and folic acid, whether you attend antenatal appointments or not? I?d warrant almost certainly nowhere near as much as you would if you were carrying a wanted baby. Are there going to be enough adoptive parents clamouring after these babies - or just the healthy ones from nice, stable middle-class backgrounds?