to hate the, ''the baby could be adopted'' argument.

[vosene]

Having read the quite lengthy thread on whether the abortion limit should be lowered (I think it's fine at 24 weeks incidentally) I just wanted to vent a little about one particular point. Whenever I've debated the issue of abortion with either the completely pro-life or simply people who want to limit the abortion criteria, the same issue continually comes up: why can't they just put the baby up for adoption instead?

Now, I've had personal experience with this because an anti-abortion family member put their child up for adoption and seemed almost idealistic about the kind of life that child would then lead. However, my friend who has adopted 2 children herself and is a social worker would tell you otherwise.

So many people seem to be under the illusion that EVERYBODY in the UK wants to adopt a gorgeous little newborn and that there are seemingly people queuing around the block to become adoptive parents. Do we honestly believe that this is true? Do they not understand how long is takes for people to be vetted and approved? Agencies are absolutely crying out for people to adopt children, but unfortunately most of those children aren't little 'untainted' babies, they're young kids with serious problems. People only want the babies because once kids get past a 'certain age', they're practically discarded on the adoptive rubbish heap. Is that fair?

How many of you actually know people with adopted children? I only know one- my friend, and I know rather a lot of people with children.

It makes my blood boil that in a similar way to people that fecklessly use abortion as a back up for their inability to ever use contraception (although I do think this is uncommon), other people will justify removing a woman's right to abortion by saying that the baby can be adopted.

My friend has told me how most young babies are actually passed from foster parent to foster parent in the first few months/ year of their life before they'll even get a chance to be adopted. For the unlucky, they just move on into care.

So, whilst I'm aware of just how emotive this issue is, AIBU to think:

1)Putting your child up for adoption is probably just as difficult as having an abortion and is not a somehow easier or 'better' option.

2)To assume that your child will be lucky and will be adopted by a kind, loving family is misguided and unfair on the child.

3. That most people using the 'adoption' argument against abortion are simply unwilling to accept that not many families in this country (or in many countries for that matter) actually want to adopt because they can have their own children instead.

If the abortion limit was lowered and this adoption solution was proposed instead, we would see the number of kids being fostered or in care go through the roof, and I doubt very much that the numbers of 'prospective parents' would actually increase as well.

sterrryerryoh yes I hope so too.

From what I have read it's a much more enlightened process these days.

Unless the children have been wrongly adopted but that is a whole other thread...

Well, in my opinion, both children had equal rights and getting rid of one to improve the quality of life of another is not a justification

In my case, 2 children would be motherless, a man widowed by now, if I was forced to carry a baby I didn't want.

As I said, I thought daily, while living through my unwanted pregnancy of crashing my car, at speed in a wall to cause a miscarriage. I only didn't because I didn't want to kill myself & leave my children & dh alone.

But that doesn't matter, does it swanandduck because a baby should have the chance to live!

I love how people judge when they know nothing of what they judge. There but for the grace of God...

'So let's not try and pretend that abortion is ever in the best interests of a foetus. It's all about the mother, surely... '

And not about her other children, or her partners, or the people she may be caring for.

It's not directly about the wider family, Expat and Mugglewump. It affects the wider family in how it filters through the mother. That's a different relationship to the one the mother has the unborn foetus.

hmm, a very emotive subject
firstly regarding the comment about 'choosing to wait': i know of several wome who did not know they were expecting until they were mid term. sometimes the signs are somewhat submerged.

secondly, pregnancy is potentially a life threateneing condition. women across the world die as a direct result of their condition, and no matter the reduction in risk in the west, i do not believe any woman is obligated to risk death against their wishes.

adoption: i have 3 close friends who were adopted at a young age. one of them has gone on to have several utterly adored children. the other 2 carry a sense of such despondency; it's saddening and infuriating all at once. the sense of rejection is ever present. howevere the world is absolutely a better place for their existence.

abortion: i terminated. it was without a doubt the worst experience of my life my relationship broke down before i found out, and the thought of being a single parent all over again frightened me more than i can ever describe.
had i chosen to carry to full term there is no way on this earth i could have handed my child over. as a parent to a baby i have only ever done it this way: spent every waking hour feeding, gazing at and caring for the most important person i believed the world ever needed; i spent every night checking dc's breathing, terrified i would lose the person on whom i depend so much. to have to feel these innate feelings from afar, i beleive would have absolutely destroyed me. as a parent the only way i am ever going to be ok is with the knowledge that my amazing, beautiful child is safe and well. could i have survived without that knowledge? i don't believe i could have, and have to presevre the mental health of the Mummy my existing child needs and loves. none of this makes the existance of my termianted child any less valid. i crave it's existence, and regret my incapacity more than i will ever tell anyone. i want to fiercely protect it's right to be alive, yet i could not give life.
if i was ever in the same position again would i do different? yes, out of sheer grief i think i would continue with the pregnancy, and bring my child into the world with pride. i would, if i felt i had to, terminate again, but that would be with the knowledge that i would never be ok again. would i give a baby up for adoption - NEVER. when i had my child every inch of my being was his mother, utterly devoted to his well being. for the sake of my mental health, i would rather terminate, or bring another hcild into relative poverty.
mugggle i too was stabbed in the back after what i went through.

ok, sorry for the essay and the typo's but this is a subject which is guaranteed to cut to the bone.

I am sorry but haven't had chance to read entire thread but I do agree with you OP.

I was utterly when a colleague who was desparately trying for a baby and had been through 5 rounds of IVF which they had paid for privately told me, that the reason they had gone privately was because they would have had to wait over 2 years on the NHS because his wife wasn't over 35, however when they looked into adoption they were told they were too old as he is quite a few years older than her....

WTF they can't adopt a child that is already in existence in desparate need of a home but in 2 more years time government funding will pay for them to try to have their own child when he is even older.

The whole system is fucked in my opinion.

Most abortions happen before 16 weeks, so the 24 week thing is really not the issue. I take major issue that what is aborted before 16 weeks is a baby. It isn't. It has the potential to be, but it isn't a baby.

I have had one miscarriage and one ectopic pregnancy. I did not miscarry a baby. One day it might have become a baby, but at that point it was a bundle of cells. I was given drugs to remove the ectopic pregnancy. I did not kill a baby. I removed a mass of cells growing on my ovary. If those cells had been in my womb they would still just have been cells.

Those pregnancies were very much wanted, and I do mourn the children that they could have been. But they weren't children. And it makes me much more fiercely pro-choice. Every baby born should be wanted as much as the ones I lost. No woman should be forced to go through a pregnancy that she does not want to keep.

Women deserve the right to choose. And babies deserve the right to be chosen.

whoneedssleepanyway - you can adopt with a 45 year age gap - so if you were 50, for eg, you can adopt a 5 year old. But adoption isn?t like having a birth child - it?s very different parenting, and if they?re still interested in having a biological child, then adoption isn?t for them
The NHS IVF thing is bizarre - we got three free rounds of IVF starting when I was 32!
I would think that anyone who had carried a baby to full term might feel differently about ?giving it up? than if they had considered abortion in early pregnancy. I doubt that either of those choices are easy, but I would assume giving a child up for adoption would carry far more issues in terms of the child that?s ?out there somewhere? rather than the child who was never born

Just to say I'm sorry if it upset anyone with my "I'm adopted, it was shite but I'm glad to be alive" comment, it really wasn't meant in a mean spirit.

I have had a termination myself FWIW

Adoption isn't easy. My bother & his new wife can't have children because he had a vasectomy while married to his first. The reversal was unsuccessful. So they decided to adopt.

They were told they couldn't adopt because his admission of his vasectomy threw 'doubt on him wanting another child'. Other than that they passed the whole process.

The authorities obviously aren't in that much need for adoptive parents, are they!

They separated for a while, because she wasn't sure if she could live without children.

adoption survey If you've been affected by adoption, please complete this survey by BAAF. Thank you.

For those of you with experience of the adoption system, I would be really interested in your views on this (will try to explain succinctly).

I understand that many adoptive parents are primarily interested in adopting a baby rather than a child, so there is a shortage of babies available for adoption but many older children who cannot find an adoptive family.

In your experience, if they cant get a baby, do these prospective adoptive parents tend to

a) take a child
b) not adopt at all

Just thinking whether actually, giving babies up for adoption rather than terminating just creates an issue of more older children who cant find adoptive parents.

Differentnameforthis: Yes, I do think a child has a right to live. That is not 'judging' that is genuinely believing that at the moment of conception the baby is a living breathing human being. I'm sorry you felt like that during your pregnancy, but that is still not going to make me change my mind on how I view abortion and why I think having the baby and giving it up for adoption is better than getting rid of the baby. It is very unfair to post as you did and to imply that people who don't support abortion don't give a damn about the unhapiness that some pregnant women go through.

It is very unfair to post as you did and to imply that people who don't support abortion don't give a damn about the unhapiness that some pregnant women go through

No, it isn't unfair for me to post what I did...because it is the truth, because lots of posters & people in RL don't seem to care about how a woman feels! I am sorry if you don't like that, but that is mine & many others experience of termination & the judgement surrounding it! And you only have to see how terminating mothers here are treated to know that!

This is why only my dh & my 2 closest friends know what I did. I wanted...needed desperately to tell my sister & dad, but they are so anti choice that they wouldn't have cared for my state of mind, just the fact that was I about to 'murder' an unborn baby. And I say murder, because that is exactly how they responded to a cousins termination!

How crass to suggest that continuing with a pregnancy that could have left me with 1/ physical problems post birth & 2/ long term mental issues would have been better, but not better for me....oh no....better for the foetus! Because it is only ever the foetus that matters, isn't it?

Nothing you say will convince me that I would have been better to carry to term a baby that was not wanted & compromise myself & the future of my children. I am not sorry that you thinking my existing children are somehow less important than a foetus is a view I cannot & will never share!

Oh & a foetus doesn't breathe.

sterrryerryoh - that is interesting, that is what he told me but maybe there were other reasons, i think you are probably right about the fact that they still want a biological child. i still think the whole system still makes it very very difficult though. on the IVF thing I think it depends from trust to trust as to what age they set and also depends on the reasons why you need the treatment.

differentnameforthis: Not agreeing with abortion because you believe a foetus is a living being does not equate with 'not caring about how a woman feels'. That is like saying that someone who doesn't agree with ending the life of a very elderly person doesn't care about how their overworked and distraught carer feels. And to say that it is crass to believe that a foetus has a right to life is again unfair of you.

Adoption as an alternative to very late abortion - maybe a valid argument, if the pregnant woman feels she can go through with it.

Adoption as an alternative to a fairly early termination - say, pre-16 weeks: Why? Personally, none of the women I know (and I know many) who have had early abortions in recent years are 'traumatised'. No harm has been done. To have had to go to full term, give birth to a child and then give it away would have been true trauma.

It all comes down to whether you value the life of the woman over the existence of a foetus, I suppose. I know it may sound very harsh, but I sometimes (in the course of my work) see women who are severely addicted to drugs and are bound to have very damaged babies who are pushed and pulled through the care system for large chunks of their lives...and I think 'What sort of life are you bringing them into?'. Sometimes abortion might be better all around.

And to say that it is crass to believe that a foetus has a right to life is again unfair of you

I did not say that it was unfair to believe a foetus has a right to life, please read my posts properly!

I said How crass to suggest that continuing with a pregnancy that could have left me with 1/ physical problems post birth & 2/ long term mental issues would have been better

I think you should read your post properly ie the rest of that sentence you quoted.

Anyway, this is getting silly.

We would love to adopt one of these older children you mention in your OP but we won't even be considered because we have a younger child and apparently you can't adopt a child that's older than the one you have.

Really Curable? That is mad.

Isn't it! We were devastated when we found out.

Did they explain their logic?? Presumably some of these children are being passed around foster homes where there are younger children.

Yep, read it again & can't see where I said it is crass to believe that a foetus has a right to life.

I stated that it was crass to believe a foetus has more right to a life than myself or my family.

I never said, nor implied that to believe it has a right to life was crass. I think you are reading it wrong!