to want to shout at Primark shoppers?

[baiyu]

I mean really, just how many shoppers without a conscience are there? There really is no justification for shopping somewhere that treats its garment workers so badly and has continued to do despite years of campaigning.

Primark are thriving in the economic downturn making workers lives worse and worse as they struggle to keep up with orders. Being poor is no excuse, I can?t afford to buy new clothes but I?d rather my few quid went to Oxfam than ABF and their cruel trading practices. So tell me, why do people shop there? The quality is terrible too, how is it a bargain if an item of clothing lasts ten minutes?

I?m not just reading the Daily Mail by the way, researching things like this is my job, the working conditions have NOT improved and it?s just making me angry! AIBU to think more people should care?

buy what you want,don't bellyache and opine to others.

no no no no Expat - you're right - see my link - they DO do gift vouchers

oh I do bellyache and opine (???) to others in RL when the topic comes up though

toccata SHUT UP!

Bloody liars said they didnt. I wanted to combine my DS's birthday present with him buying some desperately needed new clothes . I didnt trust him to actually spend real money on clothes so I was going to give him vouchers.

I ended up going with him to make sure he didnt spend it on ... I dont know but I shudder to think.

Bloody hell!

I hate them now, bugger fair traid, they lied to me and made me go shopping with a 16 year old goth SOB

Thanks baiyu for your piece, it's resulted in a really interesting discussion.

Thanks for all the WOW links BTW. Personally my knowledge of what they are doing need some updating.

But, I do think that changing the world through a campaigning style that makes people feel guilty won't work with this one given the problems people-of-low-resources are facing at the moment.

WOW need to spend some of their funds on changing people's minds in a way that won't make them feel guilty and stupid and wrong and idiots for going to Primark but actually entice them to want to do the ethical thing. Carrot, not stick.

You can only push people into world-changing action with a stick if the problem is really, really shocking and comes with really unbearable images (e.g. famine in Ethiopia). I hate to say it but this problem isn't shocking enough for the stick approach.

An example of the carrot approach would be if WOW came up with a way of buying ethical clothes that was easier than going to Primark but still solved the same problems the Primark shoppers are facing (which posters have had a go at explaining on this thread).

Perhaps just a short term, maybe touring, pop-up shop, selling ethical clothes cheaper than Primark sell them. Obviously there is no way it could be permanent. But this would show they understand the problems Primark shoppers are facing and would be more likely to engage them with the problem.

Get a designer to come up with a particular item like , for example, the Anya Hindmarsh "I'm not a plastic bag" that can do the same for this problem as that bag did for the plastic bag situation. ie, witty, intelligent, fashionable. WOW's current Love Fashion Hate Sweatshops t-shirts are none of these.

I know it's not easy, but to be successful, a campaign needs to demonstrate it understands why people behave as they do, and then offer them something that solves their problems, in a way that makes them feel good not guily, to get them to change their habits.

After posting that really long post I just realise I should have said this:

YABU because shouting at people doesn't work.

push people into world changing action.how pompous.channel your ire for the working poor and those on low wage cause.instead of berating them

actually Deptford if you look at the ratings of major retailers in my link further up - you'll see that actually Primark is by no means the worst, and it's not just the "cheap" shops that have an appalling record on it.

As WoW says (I think it was on the first page??) boycotting particular shops won't really help. The problem is far too widespread, it's not just the poor people buying their cheap clothes that are fuelling the sweatshop business, but people with more money who think they're doing a joly good job at shopping at better places such as Clarkes or John lewis.........while those companies also have no real interest in improving conditions for the workers of their suppliers.

I suppose it's a bit like the fairtrade food. It was only a few years ago that fair trade stuff was REALLY hard to find in the supermarket and if you did it cost well above the normal well known brands .Instead of companies being boycotted because they didn't sign up/follow decent standards, and people being made to feel guilty for not buying the limited things that were available a push has been made to encourage more companies to go fair trade. Plus I guess those that could afford what used to be extrordinary prices for the goods were encouraged to do so, and of course gradually increased demand meant prices started to come down, more people could afford them.

As a result fair trade food products are much easier to source these days, and often comparable (or even cheaper) than some of the big brands.

scottishmummy, that is what I am saying, don't berate people if you want to change them!

if all you can afford is primark then fine. right now, its all i can afford - often its cheaper than charity shops. the people i dont understand - and i meet quite a few of them, are those who just like to buy loads of cheap crap. if i could afford it i would rather buy good quality pieces from more conscientious stores. i recently bought a pair of leggings from primark. they went bobbly very quickly and it that case it was definately a false ecconomy. on many occasions though, primark has been a lifesaver in providing me with cheap essential items...

Good grief Baiyu what have you started??!!
223 messages, now that's impressive!!!

LM xx

messytessy - do you know who the more conscientious stores are????

Yes, still waiting on a list of high street shops I am allowed to shop in.

that question has been asked many times on this thread.

I am genuinely interested. I would rather shop ethically. I try within my means to do so.

It seems almost impossible.

some stores do make more effort than others. i dont think any are perfect. there was a really good programme on bbc3 which showed lots of the factories in india. marks and spencer was one of the better ones. they also have some fair trade garments.

'opining that the low waged can scrape by 2nd hand,car boot sale,ebay is patronising

It very probably is

Pesonally I rather like Ebay: the boys wear John Lewis, Monsoon, etc

but I pay a few pounds for it on Ebay, I know its cheap but they look the same as their friends in this nice village we so accidentally landed in.

But Ebay requires a PC, a week to get bits delivered, and that's not always possible.

Mollie I think you are alrgely right WRT to adults but not kids- kids grow and rip things. DS3 tears his clotehs and splodges ink on them every day. As it's sumemr I have stopped him wearing a jumper so it's only polo shirts- but am hoping hugely the phase ends over the summer. I do send him in washed but amrked clothes (as opposed to washed but hideously soiled) but I ahte that as much as anyone without an SN child hates seeing tehir child look scruffy.

We aarerly nuy artisan becuase it costs ££££ but we make a lot- DS1 has taken up jewellery making and has thw whole familoy seeking old necklaces at fetes etc (my parents are huge fete lovers); he's pretty good (in my biased eyes); I make cards and bread, jam, chutneys- we do as much as we can to get hiugh quality for little cash.

But I can't sew.

Simply beyond me.

I can sew. I used to make a lot of DD and DS1's clothes. Then it became cheaper to buy them.
I have set up my machine again, fabric is cheap round here. BUT the fabric is produced in the Far East and Eastern Europe. The conditions for the fabric trade are no better than the garment trade.
Depending on where it comes from, the chemicals used in production are dreadful.

toccatanfudge - that was something I had no idea about, how widespread it was - John Lewis! No!

So, how did the Fair Trade change happen, how did the push to get the companies to change actually take place, I mean, how were they pushed, and how were people encouraged people to buy fair trade?

All I remember was Chris Martin on Top of the Pops writing Make Trade Fair on his hand.

chris martin,whiney multi-millionaire with the wane wife.dont make me laugh.tossers

funnily enough im not inclined to take advice from a man who clocks up gazillion miles touring and makes my ears hurt

No, I didn't exactly warm to Chris Martin's Fair Trade thing either. So still wondering how people were encouraged to buy more Fair Trade. Was it just because prices came down?

prices coming down, more widely available and people becoming more aware, i think...

I think Chris Martin's Fair Trade must have been before my time........I didn't really start to know about it until the early 2000's when I came back from Zim.

Just want to reiterate I'm not being argumentative or sarky, am genuinely interested, albeit it slightly confused...
I've followed the link to the Labour Behind the Label website, and have been reading a report published by them in 2009. They have catagorised high st shops into four sections, based on the wages they pay their workers. Hope you don't mind me pasting a lengthy quote here...

(Two cheers" refers to the highest rated catagory of retailer)

"Two Cheers: Work to increase wages, but not enough yet
Gap
Marks & Spencer (M&S)
Monsoon Accessorize
New Look
Next
Primark
Last year only Monsoon and Gap publicly committed to a project that contains all four of our pillars of a good project. This year we can add Next and New Look to that
list, although all projects are still very much at the pilot stage. All of these companies put too much of a focus on
productivity improvements, although each goes beyond that to meet some of our criteria for a good project. All of the companies in this group seem to have a more
systematic approach to wage improvements. Gap, Next, Primark and Monsoon in particular have made some effort to include home workers. Next, Gap and New
Look all mentioned the need to address some of their purchasing practices. Only Monsoon made an, albeit qualified, mention of the need to pay a fair price."
The link is here, and that quote comes from page 3:
www.labourbehindthelabel.org/resources/itemlist/category/164-reports-guides
So if Primark were rated in the highest catagory last year, what went wrong? Did they back out on their pledge?
It's a 29 page report, so I'll finish reading in the morning.