AIBU to not give a toss that Moat was tasered?

[DetectivePotato]

May be a sensitive issue so I appologise if it upsets anyone.

Have looked at the front of todays paper and Moats family are paying for a 2nd inquest because they think he was killed by taser.

I am sorry (actually I'm not) but I don't give a flying fuck if the police tasered him.

He killed someone and seriously wounded 2 others. He went on the run and he could have hurt/killed many more people. What were the police suppose to do? Offer him a cuppa and a sit down to talk about his troubles? He clearly showed that he hated the police, he could have shot many more of them. What choice did they have but to try and disarm him.

FFS!!!!!!!!

It's actually insulting to JCdM that he's being compared to that revolting murdering moron.

yanbu

yeah, glad he's gone.

Whether or not he deserved to die ?

well usually in these circumstances there is only one outcome - death - either by police using reasonable force or own hand .

The fact that he was an illegal immigrant is not the issue..I said that to point out that he was not "completely innocent"... he was in the country illegally which means he was not a 100% law abiding citizen.... that doesn't mean he should be shot dead..of course not, however, it was probably the reason he ran from the police....maybe he thought they were from immigration..? ....we'll never know will we.

I can't believe people are comparing the death of a murderer to Jean Charles de Menezes how sick

DP - I thought it had been cleared up that De Menzies didn't run from the police at all but was just going about his daily business. The fact that he was an illegal immigrant means nothing in this case. It could have been any member ofthe public as in you or a member of your family. Also I was under the impression that there was a cover up. The police made a really bad snap decision in stressful circumstances - the fact they tried to cover it up and paint the victim as guilty was truly shocking. Remember, next time it could be you.

YANBU.

I am sick of hearing about inquests and the like. FFS the guy was holding a sawn off shot gun to his own head. The police wasted 6 hours negotiating with a nutter.

In France or Spain it would have been good night vienna within 10 minutes.

Why can't we ever praise our police force here? They did a good job in difficult circumstances whilst risking their own lives.

An inquest into wat happenned is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Total waste of public money.

scanty;

There was alot of conflicting evidence, and it's true the police did not come out of the enquiry too well...however, they maintain they did give warnings, and I believe them (the fact that the jury didn't doesn't bother me)

My assessment is that the police acted in the best interest of the public and were working under extreme pressure....we should support them.

Stockwell proves that it's overall not sensible to take a commander who's by all accounts had a distinguished career as a Diversity Director followed by managing low-level gun crime in the black community, and then appoint them Gold Commander of a firearms team who believe they are pursuing a committed suicide bomber with a viable weapon who intends to slaughter people on a train. In other news, if you plan to storm an embassy, don't put the HR director in charge, no matter how good they are at it.

You don't use major terrorist incidents as training operations, especially when you're worried enough to authorise shoot-to-kill. The police were authorised, almost without training and at the last minute, to make head shots. There would have been a hyped-up, uncertain air because they were operating outside their regular training and doctrine, with a commander who was a very distinguished Diversity Director who'd done good work stopping fourteen year olds shooting each other. It was a disaster waiting to happen, and that no-one turned round and said, ``sorry, we can't cope, please second people from the SAS to support us tactically'' is incomprehensible.

Yes bring the SAS on the streets and we have another Opertaion Flavius blow up in our face - Gilbrator.

What happened in Stockwell needs to go on another thread . These two incidents cannot be compared , whether it be the judgements of the police or the members of public involved.

YANBU.

If Moat was killed by some means other than the official version and that was covered up, then that ought to be exposed. Because you just can't have a police force in a democratic country doing that unchecked.

I suspect strongly that he didn't and there wasn't, but it's as well for the rule of law for there to be no remaining doubt on that point.

daftpunk, you have every right to disagree with the jury's conclusions but it's at best disingenuous to then put forward your own interpretation as an incontrovertible statement of fact.

Jean Charles de Menezes was shot because he was sort of brownish and came out of the same building as a suspect who was also sort of brownish (although of a completely different ethnic origin) and the police failed to notice that it wasn't the same bloke. Then having shot him they lied, massively and repeatedly, about almost every aspect of what had happened, until the truth was eventually dragged out. I can't imagine why they were criticized .

If the reaction to the Menezes shooting had been an almost immediate "Ah, shit, sorry, we got that one badly wrong" then I could understand and sympathise. There was a state of heightened sensitivity to terrorist action and there was a genuine belief that another attack was imminent, and mistakes stupid, tragic mistakes do happen. But when it became clear to the police what they'd done the response (at an institutional level, not just from the individuals concerned) was to attempt to cover it up, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

De Menezes was shot because he was a suspected terrorist...not because he was "sort of brownish"....give our police some fucking credit....they risk their lives everyday for you..

What I'd like to know is what, suspiciously no-one else is asking. Just how much, exactly was Moat's house worth? The Daily Mail usually get this sort of angle spot on but they seem a bit quiet about it on this occasion. Do you think they are hiding something?

Inquiry important to establish all the facts. And might give some interesting information about the use of tasers that can inform future practice.

V. bad taste to bring poor Jean Charles into this, the two cases are not comparable in any way at all.

But since he's been mentioned Daftpunk, the members of the public who were actually there didn't hear any warnings. The poor man didn't run from the police or jump the barriers (that was a police officer), he just got on the tube, like thousands of other people. His misfortune was to look suspiciously Asian in the opinion of some coppers, to be using public transport and to live in a block of flats. Oh, and that the copper who was supposed to confirm the identity was off taking a leak and apparently no-one else was covering for him. Makes the keystone cops look professional.

I was travelling on the tube everyday at the time of the July bombings and tbh the shooting of Mr de Menezes made me more scared of the police than the bombers. (Even though the bombers actually commuted in on dh's train.)

Going back to the oringinal question, yabu. His family, who are innocents in this particular event want another postmortem, then let them have have it. Whatever the guydid, which was truly horrific, the family still see this guy as a dad, son,brtoher etc,and need to grieve.

They were looking for four specific suspected terrorists, none of whom was Menezes and none of whom was Brazilian. One man thought that Menezes, who came out of the building they were watching, was sufficiently similar in appearance to one of the photographs of the suspects to be "worth someone else having a look" (OK, OK, I'm guessing that this was partly because of his skin tone giving him a superficial similarity to the actual suspect. Perhaps it wasn't; perhaps the suspected terrorist was blonde and blue-eyed and the officer was just really short-sighted ). Images weren't transmitted to operational HQ and the order that Menezes was to be prevented from entering the Tube system was made entirely on the basis of that one man's hunch, that he wasn't particularly confident in himself.

The fact that someone risks their life for me doesn't mean that I need to pretend that they've acted appropriately when they haven't, or that they've followed established and agreed surveillance procedures when they haven't, or that they have told the truth when they have repeatedly lied outrageously. If we can't attempt to conduct the business of government in an open and above-board manner then there's really very little hope for any of us. As I said above, if the police had admitted the mistakes that must have been obvious to them in the immediate aftermath of the shooting then I'd have a lot of sympathy for them. It's the cover-up that rankles more than the initial failings in procedure.

I'm 100% behind the police in the Moat incident.

I regularly listen to TalkSport in the evenings and heard the mad woman who set up the Facebook page attempting to justify her actions - quote "he were a legend for keeping t'police on their toes".
As well as numerous "friends" who claim 'Moaty' was set up by the police (over his conviction which resulted in his prison sentence) and that the police had a vendetta against him.
There does appear to be an underclass in this country who think the police are out to get them and that people like Moat are some kind of hero. This is what disturbs me the most.

YANBU Moat was the one holding the gun, that situaton was going to end in someone being hurt

This is not about whether we care personally what happened to Moat. I'm sure most of us don't.

There has to be an inquest and an inquiry for the sake of everyone concerned... the victims, families (of victims as well as Moat), the public and the police. If the Moat family and/or supporters are left in any doubt about the circumstances of the man's death then conspiracy theories will flourish. This was a very unusual stand-off situation for the police and they also will want to examine what happened not simply to exonerate their people but in order to provide better training for officers in the future.

I think there needs to be an enquiry so in that sense I care why he was shot. However I'm fairly sure an enquiry will find that he was shot because he was tasered validly while holding a gun to his head, and the police were blameless.

Daftpunk, I have tried and tried to think kindly of you despite increasing evidence to the contrary but OMFG....

YOU ARE VILE

If you have nothing to contribute to the topic other than bleating about illegal immigrants (I'm sure that the idea of just shooting them all in the back of the head is a final solution you and your scumbag BNP mates would love) then piss off and peddle your low-level poison somewhere else.

You disgust me. And I like the police. I have policemen in my family, some of whom have taken part in armed anti-terrorist activities (not the Menedes case, thank Christ). But there is no excuse and never will be for repeatedly shooting an unarmed man in the back of the head.

But as you've said on another thread, you only read posts that agree with your twisted world view, so I doubt this will bother you or not.

MN, please can we have a facility like the C4 forums where we can block posters from our view?