to have installed a pole dancing pole in my living room...?

[superv1xen]

been having lessons for months now and decided to get one put in at home!

its amazing for fitness and so much fun, i have really toned up since doing it and i am thinking of possibly teaching it from home if i get good enough. and dp enjoys watching me practise although i reckon the novelty will probably wear off soon

my mum did a bit of a "cats bums mouth" when she first saw it though and dp darent even tell his mum i have got one! haha

But if the problem with pole dancing is how it is perceived (ie. as an activity performed by sex workers), then changing that perception is a good thing, surely.

Time was actresses were regarded as prostitutes. I wouldn't discourage my dds from taking part in school plays on that account.

But you misunderstand. You seem to be saying that pole dancing in any form is somehow, insscabably and irrevocably a manifestation of 'the sex industry' entering the mainstream.

But that is just not true. Poledancing for fun and fitness is something participated in by thousands of women and hundreds of venues and neither the women, nor the venues, nor the content of the classes have anything to do with the sex industry at all. Or with the content of Nuts and Zoo, come to that.

There is no nudity, no lingerie. No male audience, no invitation to the public to watch. Students and participators wear gym kit.

It's manifestly not the same thing at all.

This has been explained over and over, and to still insist that despite thousands of perfectly intelligent women taking it up, they are somehow fools who know no better and need to be saved from themselves is incredibly patronising and frankly, sexist.

I am a feminist who supports women making their own informed and unpressurised choices. If women want to climb up poles for laughs, I am more than happy to respect their free choice to do so, and I would not presume that they are idiots just because they are doing something I've not tried, haven't researched or don't feel drawn to.

And what ravenAK said.

You can't have it both ways Miffster. Either pole dancing is erotic and this is ok because it's, like, empowering to be a sexually attractive woman.

OR it's exercise and not about sex.

You are using both arguments indiscriminately. Make your mind up. Are you reclaiming the sex industry for women or are you toning your muscles.

And yes the OP did mention kids. I'm not sure if you've actually read this thread but most of your points have already been made and addressed.

1.I don't pole dance,
2.it is about both as far as I can see, just as any form of dance can be erotic or about getting fit
3.It's just a pole and what the person does near/holding onto it clearly varies according to context, mood and location.

a) Pole in a strip club with naked woman walking round it,
b) Pole in a gym with upsidedown off-duty barrister working out on it
c) Pole at home with mum and 2 children skipping round it giggling
d) Pole at home with same mum dancing saucily for her husband when kids are in bed.

Pole is a pole. It's what people do with it that counts. I 'm really surprised people here can't tell the difference between a0 and b), c) and d).

Belly dancing:
Can be highly erotic.
Can be a fun way of getting in shape.
Can be female bonding activity.
Can be an exercise class.
Can be used during and after pregnancy to tone abs and hips, prepare for labour and work pelvic floor.
Can be done in context of of full or semi-stripping to excite male gaze.
Can be done by women for their lovers to seduce them in private.
Can be done with a group of small children all wiggling about and being silly.
Can be done as part of a dance show.
Can be done in a gentleman's club.
Can be taught at a sixth form workshop.

See?

Is being taken up by teenage girls in the hope that they will then conform to the sex industry-driven depiction of women as 'up for it all the time' fuck holes.

See?

It isn't actually, 5 minutes of research indicates classes are far too expensive for teenage girls to afford.

And why do you think watching the fact that some women work as strippers causes all men to think all women are 'up for it all the time' 'fuck holes'?

The arguments against on this thread seem to be coming from a position of overt prejudice and narrow-minded wilful ignorance.

Blinder - that really isn't my experience of teenage girls.

I know two who've moved onto pole dancing from street dancing (which can also involve some suggestive moves) - girls I teach in year 11.

Both roll their eyes in exasperation at their male classmates' blinkered ideas about pole dancing. Of course those attitudes exist, but the girls I know regard them as tedious & Neanderthal.

I'm not dismissing valid concerns about the pornification of teenage sensibilities - Playboy pencilcases? Don't get me started! - but I don't think that it's very fair, or very feminist, tbh, to suggest that any girl who wants to take part in a perfectly legit fitness activity is motivated by a need to be seen as an 'up for it all the time fuck hole' '

ravenAK: it's an odd logic, isn't it. On the one hand, we campaign hard to say that women can wear what they like and it shouldn't be seen as an invitation to rape (quite rightly so) and yet a woman chooses a method of exercise and suddenly the names come out of the woodwork: 'stripper', 'up for it all the time fuck hole', someone who would 'deepthroat the postman'.

Makes me feel quite ill, actually. Don't like pole dancing clubs? Then campaign against them. All this ire and hatred directed at the woman making the choice is defeating the object somewhat if the aim is to reduce misogyny.

Miffster I find it strange that you sight 'ignorance' as a reason for disagreeing with poledancing.. but the research you have offered to me is a link to a wikipedia page about stripping (or maybe poledancing, I cant remember exactly and i didnt follow the link) At the risk of sounding like a complete bitch... my research in to pole dancing, its history and its affect on the individual as well as society is a little deeper than a wiki page could offer!!

Please come back when you yourself are less 'ignorant' about the subject.

I accept that peoples opinion differ on this subject but I wont accept being assused of wilful ignorance.

And I never called those women fools.

I campaign about the sex industry, not the individual women doing the stripping and pole dancing.

And speaking of women who pole dance for ' funa nd fitness' or whatever, I never called them fools either, I just dont agree with it and I beleieve a lot of people who dont see a problem with it havent looked at the bigger picture.

I beleive that poledancing has been brought it to the mainstream so that women can learn to be what socety deams as sexy and available and feel like they are being empowered when actually they are not - they are conforming to an extremely sexist view of what a woman should be like

i.e. sticking her bottom out more to look 'gorgeous' and cavorting on a pole (which is not falic out of coincidence)

I linked to wiki on the history of pole dancing, a reasonably well-researched article which offers an overview of where it came from.

I linked there since your position is that it is intrinsically and exclusively linked with the sex industry, I thought it might enlighten you to see where it came from and how it is now accepted as just another form of exercise. I rather assumed you'd not have time to read a whole PDF or a book or a series of articles or reports. As it turned out, you couldn't even be bothered to click on a wiki link, rather proving my suspicions!

The fact that you have now said that you actively 'campaign about the sex industry' rather explains your attitude, as does your post that you are bringing your daughters up to actively 'be horrified' about it. I suppose if you campaign about the sex industry that explains why that is all you can see when you look at pole dancing.

IMO you are missing the point though.
Like an anti-violence campaigner campaigning against boxercise classes! Although I wouldn't be at all surprised if you thought Davina McCalls Boxercise DVD was somehow 'normalising violence' or something, it would still be a fairly extreme minority position.

Why can't you accept that people might have looked at the bigger picture and seen a different bigger picture to you?

You have your 'beliefs' and your campaigns, but I haven't seen you present any actual evidence at all that poledancing class attendees are buying into the sex industry or are harmed by it in any way whatsoever.

Care to present some?

Miffster, are you reading anyone elses posts or just mine?

My opinion is not really minority, there are many others on this thread who agree with me.

It wasnt that I couldnt be bothered to click oon the wiki link. I just fail to see that its going to offer a lot of information that I dont already know having read; 'striped' 'stripping the illusion' 'living dolls' 'female chauvanist pigs' and many other fact based books and articles on the subject.

The 'evidence'you ask for is there in plain sight. The sex industry in general portrays an image of women as sexually available and as objects. Poledancing began in sex clubs because the nature of writhing around a pole win heels with your bottom stuck out forces the woman participating to appear sexually available to those looking on - usually men.

Men, and arguably some women, and almost always people who stand to make money out of womens bodies have brought these things in to the mainstream.. 'lads' magazines at childrens eye height with women inside who are made to feel like they are in an exclusive and glamourous 'competition' and made to show their breasts to win prizes if theirs are the best. Strip clubs have been brought out of dark allyways and in to the highstreet where theyve been rebranded as high class entertainment. More women are having cosmetic surgery to force their bodies to conform to the ideals of strippers and porn stars.. and poledancing as been brought in to gyms and peoples homes..

None of this happened in order to liberate women. It was done to oppress women and make money out of their bodies.

I agree with you completely about 'lads' mags', strip clubs on the highstreet & cosmetic surgery.

But I don't see shadowy male oppressors 'bringing' pole dancing to gyms or home exercise.

Why would it be in their interests to do so?

If you're trying to sell pole dancing as an exciting, erotic spectacle to blokes, then it's not going to help that their kid sister/grandma do it as part of their Keep Fit class.

• & yes RubberDuck, I agree that it's bloody odd logic that the misogynist name-calling is being projected & indeed validated by other women.

Blinder, what makes you think you can't have it both ways? Why does it have to be about sex and sexual empowerment OR about exercise and not sex? Haven't you heard of the word 'sometimes'?

Do you think the Chinese Pole Men, who perform in cirque du soleil, running up the poles and flipping on them, hanging upside down by their ankles - do you think that is about sex?

I don't.

Do you think the children swinging around and sliding down the fireman's pole installed in kid's playgrounds are thinking about sex?

I don't.

Now take a women in a dimly lit room, with huge platform heels, and a bikini, and she's slinking around the pole, lifting herself and spinning around it in a beautiful, mesmirising way - yes THAT could be about sex.

To everyon...

We do not live in a world in which everything is black or white, or yes or no. And at the end of the day a pole is a vertical piece of cylindrical metal. The pole the OP would put in her living room is not sexy or slutty, no more than lamp post or a street sign pole is.

It is only your preconcieved notions and assumptions about what might be done ON the pole, that might be 'inappropriate'.

Pole dancing can be used for exercise AND for circus tricks AND for sexual entertainment. As human beings, we have a brain that is capable of understanding 'context' and applying meaninh to things based on circumstances. Please use your brain for what it was made for.

Sorry to double post but I couldn't go past this comment: "There arent many men that pole dance miffster... "

Actually, there are hundreds. Many of them are straight too!

www.youtube.com/user/OOBadazzOO#p/u/3/9DRNtp2BcSs
www.youtube.com/user/MrPhatLips#p/u/5/0J_vaWUVcd4
A cool James Bond themed one www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNQI5tZKbvc

The International Pole Fitness Championship Male Division Runner Up Performance: www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5eez8L5elk

The International Pole Fitness Championship Male Division Winner Interview: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEIPFfLwc_k&feature=related

The Asia Pacific Pole Championship Male Division Highlights: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yz25tyJLDI (skip to 2.00 if you don't wanna sit through the interviews)

Mixed Doubles division (ie. 2 people on the pole, same gener or mixed gender) www.youtube.com/user/AustralianPoleDance#p/u/1/qa9DCIpkQmQ

This is a really small sample. As you can see there are national and international competitions that have entire divisions for male pole dancers. I find it hard to believe their choice of sport here is somehow contributing to the sexualisation or objectification of women.

Excellent posts, Alice

The chinese pole dancing men.. I do get that that is different. It is a sport, I can see that. And I dont think it even did originate from sex shows as the moves arent even remotely sexual.

But pole dancing lessons, many of my friends have been on them, are pretty much a woman shouting at other women encouraging them to 'stick their bottoms out' and look gorgeous and sexy. The OP herself is doing it to tone up and look good (which im pretty certain the men in Alice's links are not. They are doing it to compete)
She has been going to pole dancing lessons. And her partner enjoys watching her.

The very fact he wont tell his family she has one shows that he is ashamed of it and knows it is linked to poledancing in the sex industry sense.. Same way he wouldnt offer up information to his mother about watching porn together etc.

In responce to Alice's post. Fine, men do use poles in sport. But they don't pole 'dance' in the way that is encouraged in these local lessons in gyms around the country.

Even the competitions themselves are called 'pole championships' they are nothing to do with dancing..

On polepeople website...

Pole dancing for women only:
Polepeople pole dancing courses, Burlesque courses, sensual dance, pole choreography and musical theatre courses are all made up of six classes.

POLE DANCING CLASSES

We teach all levels of pole dancing, from beginners to super advanced. You'll learn a whole variety of pole dancing tricks and poses and the dance moves that link them all together during each course.

After warming up, the pole dancing begins. We have between 3 and 6 poles in each of our course venues so you have plenty of time to practice what you're learning. There are between 9 and 14 women per course. Classes are fun, friendly and supportive and everyone is welcome, no matter what age, shape, or size you are. Pole dancing is a great way to get fit and a great confidence boost as well!

POLE DANCING BEGINNER COURSES
This is for people who've never pole danced before whether you're someone who hasn't done any exercise for years or a fitness fanatic. After 6 weeks you will notice a real difference in your strength and will be chuffed at how much you're able to do on the pole. The corkscrew, knee hook spin, sunwheel, fireman spin, horizontal twist, cartwheel kick and climbing the pole are just some of the moves you'll learn.
On week 6 there's a bit of a celebration and everyone does a dance to show off the pole dancing tricks and poses you've mastered on the course. To mark the occasion, Polepeople certificates are presented!

poledancing for men and women

POLE FITNESS for men and women!

Pole dancing fitness classes are as accessible for men as they are for women. Mixed classes are for men and women who want to learn to pole dance as a way of building strength, getting fit and flexible, and having fun. Like on all our pole classes, you will learn a whole variety of pole dancing tricks and poses, and the dance moves that link them all together.

So for the mixed classes it all about fitness and strength. The women only excercise is all about looking good and showing off poses 'sensual dance' burlesque...

Pmsl at being told to use my brain.

Ok it's a sexy-fitness-reclaimed-feminist's totem pole. And it's not part of the pornification of society at all and anyone ego thinks it is is a misogynist or brainless .

foureleven, you haven't even read your own link right!

Pole dancing beginner classes (for women) - they lead in with exercise - whether you haven't done any for years, or are a fitness fanatic. They then go on to talk about getting fit and confidence boosting. At the end of the course they perform 'tricks and poses'. So - exactly the same as the mixed classes, where you will see, (if you bother to read your own links properly), that the men and women learn to pole dance - not just poses and tricks that require strength, and fitness, but the dance moves that link them all together.

They also offer separate courses in burlesque, sensual dance, pole choreography and musical theatre.

Sheesh, if you can't even be arsed to properly read the material that you cite to try to make your own case...

FWIW, I've read Ariel Levy as well, and whilst I agree with her on somethings, I don't agree with her on others - and vis a vis the popularity of pole dancing classes, I know she has got it wrong.

It strikes me that no matter what a woman says to you about her reasons for doing something that she enjoys and you disapprove of, you think you are right and she is wrong and are not willing to entertain the fact that she might have thought things through, looked at the big picture and come to a different, but still entirely reasonable conclusion to you.

You know best, or think you do. You seem to want to save her from herself, or at the very least to pour disapproval on her for making her own adult choices about her body, her use of her time and money, and to think less of her for having the temerity to choose to do something that may or may not be sexual or playful because she enjoys it.

You aren't alone in this - others, loftily convinced that the woman pole dancing is making a frightful mistake, being tacky, slutty or complicit in the oppression of herself, her daughters and women everywhere have said it too.

How incredibly patronising and sexist that strikes me as being.

I have never said that anything is slutty.

I dont know what 'slutty' is to you but to me it is a word that has no exact meaning. Nor tacky (at least when in reference to a person)

I did read my own links thoroughly thank you. And noted the difference in one when describing poledancing for women only and mixed male and female pole dancing.

When sold to men it is a test of strength and fitness.. when sold to women it is a way to have fun, look sexy and learn to pose.

Like blinder said - I am heartily sick of this thread. You direct your comments and questioning at me as though I am some kind of freak because I havent bought in to this ridiculous craze. My opinion is well researched and shared by many many people.

Maybe you have done your own research and have decided this isnt an aspect of feminism that you want to be a part of. That is fine and I resepce that. But many women have popped on to this thread to mindlessly say - as though they have never contemplated the topic - 'oh, nothing wrong with it, it looks like fun' and so my comments are mainly directed in their direction to maybe prompt them to think outside the box for a moment at the bigger picture in all this.

Anyway, I dont have to justify my choice to protect myself and my girls from this kkind of moronic conformity to the ideal female.. i.e. one who is toned and 'fun' and who's chosen form of excercise is writhing around a pole with her bottom stuck out.

So to quote David Mitchell: you wont find female empowerment halfway up a pole.

Pole dancing classes in gyms are approved by the PDC (pole dancing community. They say:

'modern fitness pole dancing, despite having elements of Mallakhamb and Chinese Pole, is still strongly influenced by the exotic pole dancing world.'

So what people are doing in the gym comes from the sex industry. It doesn't come from something that used to happen in the sex industry. It comes from what is happening in the sex industry right now.

If people start to create a new culture and exercise around poles, that's fine, although creating a new culture takes a lot more than simply moving locations. But to pretend that what is currently going on in gyms is not very similar in moves and poses to those of a sex worker in a club is simply disingenuous.

I don't think it's fair to apply a blanket statement to these women's only pole dancing classes. They are not ALL about being sexy and slutty and sticking your bottoms out.

Of course some are. But many are not.

I am pole instructor and we teach women's only classes. We focus on fitness and grace. Some may still call the moves sexy, in the same way some people find hip hop dancers or jazz dancers sexy. Beauty (and sexiness) is in the eye of the beholder. A confident woman dancing, no matter the style, is 'sexy' to many.

Some pole classes will be about wearing stilettos and shimmying up and down the pole, striking poses. Others will be about wearing sneakers and performing acrobatic tricks and spins (as mine are).

At my studio we teach mens classes, women's classes, kids classes and mixed gender classes and the curriculum is indentical (of course, allowances are made for differences in body types and strength levels). No stilettos, no platforms, no bums hanging out, no hair tossing. (If you want that, you can book a private lesson, or a pole party.)

They way I teach is gymnastics and if you came to my class you could not disagree.

Pole dancing is the best thing I have ever done. I am more confident, more toned, stronger, healthier, fitter, I eat better, I walk taller, my life-long postural problems have been FIXED, I have high self esteem and self worth and healthy body image. I wish I had started sooner!