To expect a Headteacher to see my point and show compasion and flexibility? When is a mobile phone NOT a mobile phone?

[Yorkshiremix]

So sorry if this is a bit long but I am in need of other opinions, whether I'm right or wrong please.

The background is that I am single mum and totally broke, I mean I'm lucky if there is a spare £5 or £10 left each week after food and bills (not including clothes or clubs or anything nice). So paying for my daughter to go away on the year 6 residential trip has been a major hardship for us, but I did it and she was looking forward to her first holiday in 6 years.

Letters had come home stating no mobile phones were allowed but the kids could take MP3's and cameras at their own risk. I have never allowed my daughter to have a mobile phone, not only can we not afford it but I feel strongly that they are not necessary at her age. A couple of years ago my son (age 21) gave his sister his old mobile phone so that she could use it as an MP3 as she had been asking for an ipod and I couldn't afford it. She has been happily using this as a camera and MP3 now for the past 2 years, never again asking for an ipod. So knowing that it wasn't working as a mobile and was the only camera that we had, as I really couldn't afford even a disposable along with the developing fee, I went to the headteacher and explained the situation asking her to allow my daughter to take it. She refused.

I went home and after thinking about it I became increasingly frustrated, so I sent her an email, telling her that, as it was impossible to use it as a mobile phone without a valid sim card, (it has a very old sim in it to enable use, that can neither call out or call in, in fact if you access the number of the sim and ring it, some random bloke answers, as the sim is that old the number has been reassigned) and therefore it was just a piece of equipment for use as an MP3 and camera and as she was allowing children to take MP3's and cameras, I would therefore have to disagree with her decision and would be allowing my daughter to take it as I had already explained to her that we couldn't afford anything else.

When they arrived, my daughter sent me a letter which didn't reach me until the morning that they were due home, begging me to call her, very upset, the headteacher had taken it from her when they arrived and had refused to let her call me. When I collected her, she was still upset, she was the only child without a camera and had no pictures of her holiday. The head gave it back to her 10 mins before they arrived home, she wouldn't even let her listen to her music on the 3 hour bus journey home. My daughter informs me that many children had taken an ipod touch which, with the right application, can even send emails within a wi-fi area. It was totally impossible for my daughters to be used as a phone.

I am furious, I told the headteacher so. I asked her if she had even tried to make a call on it or call the phone? She said she hadn't. I asked her if she had confiscated any other child's MP3 or camera? She said no she hadn't. I asked her why she allowed all the other kids to have ipods that can email then? She said that she wouldn't be next year (very immature).

Am I being unreasonable to be upset by this? Was she being narrow-minded, lacking in common sense and compassion? In this day and age of technology, why can't she see that a mobile phone can be used in other capacities without being able to make calls, are we supposed to just fill up landfills with all this technology rather than put it to use elsewhere?

Really, what harm did it do anyone? The only one upset on that trip ended up being my daughter. I have demanded an apology, but she refuses.

Yorkshiremix, I agree with your point of view entirely. Like Tabliohope and others, I also think that head teachers and schools should be accountable and open to being challenged on some decisions.

Your daughter's head teacher should have exercised more flexibility and understanding, especially given your daughter's rough ride during the past year. But then I wouldn't expect great decision-making from a person who has failed to sort out bullying in her school.

I hope the grammar school proves a much better environment for your daughter, and that she is very happy there.

I hope your daughter settles into her new school and is able to put those mean girls behind her.

With issues like this I think it's less 'stick up arse' and more the fact that, as I think someone else mentioned, kids don't see the grey areas, they just see black and white and are (as a group, as opposed to as individuals) very conservative. You never hear the end of it if things aren't 'fair'.

Your last post was great btw, hope you get the bullying issue sorted out. It does sound as if that has been managed badly.

PMSL at "fiscally challenged"

YABVVVVU. If you were going to send the phone with her anyway, why ask permission? One rule for them, another for you.

The Head could have shown more compassion without backing down. Why didn't he/she ask your DD to be responsible for a school camera and take some photos for the school website? That would have solved the problem all round and given your DD something to be responsible for, which she would have probably been very proud of.

The bullying should also be dealt with more effectively.

I do, however, think YABU to send the phone anyway but can see why you did it!

Tinuviel - that would have been an excellent solution. What a shame the head or other teachers didn't have the imagination to come up with it.

Glad your daughter got into grammer school and won't have to mix with those not very nice/badly brought up children. I also think Tinuviel's idea would have been great.

So far as I can see, your dd didn't have a mobile phone. She had a camera/mp3 player. I think the head was totally inflexible from the start and a bit of a bitch tbh. She knows about the bullying and should have been trying to make your childs life easier. I do not think that her authority outranks yours. You are the mother and I think you do have the right to say that you disagree and overule her decision. She made the wrong decision imo.

I think you really should be addressing the bullying. My niece was being badly bullied, so her mother moved her to a different school - she's doing much better since.

What punishment have these girls been given for the way they treated your daughter?

If the head isn't dealing with it, what do the Governors say? The LEA? The school has a duty of care to your daughter.

The head was right - there can't be exceptions to rules, otherwise everyone will find a reason to be the exception.

I would be more concerned that the head did nothing about the bullying.

I'm a bit surprised that most replies seem to feel that you ABU.

I feel rather sorry for you and your DD.

It must have felt a bit like banging your head against a brick wall trying to explain that the implement in question was in the shape of a mobile phone but wasn't being used as one.

Was it a case of "A rose by any other name"?

I personally would be more worried about the bullying. Afraid to say that little girls can be real little bitches at times.

It's a case of pack mentality. It's as though they can smell out weaknesses and insecurities in other children and then attack as a pack.

I know that is being really, really melodramatic but I genuinely have a really soft spot for children who have been bullied.

My DD attended a very posh girls' school with extremely strict uniform policy.

However, they were not allowed to take mobile phones,or any other personal belings to school.

On excursions the same thing applied.

When they had uniform free days once a term,not one girl in the school had designer or expensive clothes.

You need to teach your DD that the person she is doesn't depend on what materialistic possessions she has.

If she has high self esteem and belief in herself she won't need to depend on material possessions to make her feel good about herself.

Karmabeliever - honestly? You think the mother's authority outranks the head teacher on a school trip? Do you tell your children to just ignore what teachers say when you disagree with them? At home, the parent can decide to overrule the teacher. But in school, and on a school trip, the school are allowed to decide what the rules are and what the sanctions will be for breaking them.

"I do not think that her authority outranks yours. You are the mother and I think you do have the right to say that you disagree and overule her decision. She made the wrong decision imo."

And this is exactly what people have been saying needed to be avoided, an absolutely appalling attitude to pass on to your children.

If the head had allowed the phone, and whatever you say, it IS a phone, albeit one not capable of making calls - there'd have been an uproar with half the story making it home (not saying kids lie, but sometimes it's not the full story that gets back to parents) of how "Jenny was allowed her phone even though Mister X said that no one was allowed theirs."

Jenny's then singled out as getting special concessions and being different (exactly what you wanted to avoid), there's a stream of parents marching up to the school complaining about discrimination and unfair treatment and the whole thing disintegrates into a complete mess.

The phones are usually banned because it stops kids fretting too much about calling home, being homesick, parents ringing every 30 minutes to make sure they're still ok... it would have looked very much like favouritism for even a "dud" phone to be allowed, and then there'd be a stream of other kids trying it on with the "my phone doesn't even work" routine. It wasn't really fair to back the head into the corner and present them with a fait accompli in sending the phone anyway - at which point he HAD to act to be seen to be consistent and fair (and to be seen not to single your child out for special treatment to be honest).

The bullying - that's another issue - and to be honest, I think it would probably have been worse if she'd had her phone there as it would have marked her out as being "special" in some way and the kids would have been quite resentful of her having hers and them not having theirs.

I speak as the kid who had the cruddiest most un-fashionable label clothes and must-have gadgets about 5 years after everyone else at school as well. Yes, it's translated into me being a gadget freak now I'm older and have more disposable income - but surprisingly, very little of having to slum it with an Argos £9.99 tape walkman when everyone else had shiny new CD ones, or being the last kid in the class to have a video player (and it was BetaMax!) and the like harmed me in the long run.

Yes I do think the mothers authority outranks the schools. Schools do not always make the right decisions. The mother clearly explained her circumstances and the HT made the wrong call. It would have been a simple matter for the HT to say to anyone who asked that the phone was not capable of being used as a phone,but only as an mp3/camera. Alternatively, as someone suggested earlier, the HT could have lent the child the school camera. The HT made a decision and would not be budged. I feel she was trying to assert her own authority over the parent and ended up penalising the child for it.

When I send my DC to school, I do not agree to give up parental authority. Ultimately it is up to the parent to act in the best interests of their DC. I do not accept the view that in allowing one child it paves the way for all the others to insist on having phones. Children should be treated fairly but not necessarily exactly the same. As stated, the child didn't have a mobile phone. If it can't make or receive calls, it is only useful for its other functions.This was made very clear to the HT.

Thank you Shirleyknot and others for your kind comments. I think that one of the hardest things about being a single mum is, at times, not being able to see where/if you are going wrong. In a partnership, there is usually someone with a smypathetic ear and another point of view to your own and it's therefore sometimes easier to get some perspective. I'm glad I found this site and this was my first post, so I jumped in the deep end! As I said, even though a lot of you think IABU, I came to get perspective and am happy I did, my view is, what's the point of asking the question AIBU? if I am not willing to accept the answer.

coralanne your're right, the bullying is horrid and it is a pack mentality amongst girls, I have a 21 year old son at university and never had this problem with him. My daughter does, mostly, believe in herself and is a little toughie, there has been many a night when I have cried over the things they say to her but she wont cry, she says she won't let them see her cry. A few weeks ago, she said to me, 'Mum, I'm kind and funny and clever so why am I at the bottom of the pile?' I told her that being at the top of their pile is no great honour anyway and not the kind of place she should aspire to be and that she will always be at the top of my pile and anyone else's that has any amount of kindness, love and intelligence.

She is different to them in a very good way, she isn't materialistic, she happily accepts what she has, she might ask for things but never moans if we can't afford it. As, I said before, she has never moaned that she can't have all the latest gadgets, she's been happy with her little battered MP3/Camera and hasn't even complained that I won't let her use it as a phone, I love her for that. For her birthday last year I bought her a rucksack and pencil case from paperchase (her favourite shop), she was estatic, loved them and was proud to take them to school the next day, her so called friends asked if that was ALL she got, yes she said, and they picked on her all week.

If I had my way, I would have kept her off the school trip and the last 2 weeks of school but she so wanted the experience and to take part in the leaver assembly etc, so she is putting up with it in order to finish the year. A couple of the other parents organised an end of year meal for them at a Restaurant £20 and a limo to take them 20mins down the road £30, my daughter happily accepted that the limo was a waste of money at a time that we were needing every spare penny to pay for the residential trip and school uniform for next year, so we just paid for the restaurant, yet again she is the only girl not going in the limo, when asked why, she tells them we would rather spend the money on something more useful, such as Grammar School Uniform (£250! )but they just tell her that we are stupid and pick on her endlessly. I just don't know why one of them could'nt have just said something like, 'oh, we'll miss you, but don't worry we'll save you a seat at the restaurant'. Is it asking too much for that sort of kindness from 11 year olds? I know it's what my daughter would say to anyone else. I honestly can't wait for the end, she never has to associate with the girls, the school or the headteacher ever again after next Thursday evening, thank god!

And quite clearly in this situation mothers do not always make the right decisions.
And on a school trip the schools authority absolutely outranks the mothers authority, if you do not wish to relinquish parental authority to the school then don't send them on the trip.
You can't have it both ways, you can't relinquish the responsibility for your childs safety and well being to the school (which is what happens when a child is left in the schools care) but then claim to hold on to a superior authority even though the child is in their care.

I'm with karmabeliever - the head's authority shouldn't outrank the parents - in somethings yes, but on this occasion no. Schools want a parent-teacher partnership but exerting your authority in this way only gets people's backs up and doesn't create willing or good relations. HT was OTT and on her own little power struggle. You'd hope that someone that gets that far in their career would have better management skills. Not sure who mentioned it before but someone said sometimes you have to just swallow it and get on - not in my book, sorry. I believe in being allowed your opinion even if it's not what the school wants to hear - how else do you bring about change - and some schools do need to learn some things.

Yorkshiremix your daughter sounds lovely. My DS is very similar - not bothered about possessions, doesn't want to compete in that way, just doesn't see things like that. Happy in who he is. She'll go far. She sounds great. It makes me think she's got it from you - a mum willing to speak up for what she believes in and not toe the line just as it's the done thing and it's what everyone else does. Long live a bit of anarchy I say! Nothing wrong with being a rebel from time to time.

I am so bloody sick of living in a society where people pass on to their stuck up brats the attitude that if you can't afford go in a limo when you are ELEVEN bloody years of age you are worthless!

I am so cross on behalf of your daughter, you need to try to find people in your area that aren't so stuck up and snobby and who see the real worth of a person, not how much money they have. Make friends with artists and environmental activists, they don't usually give a toss about 'stuff', other than materials they need.

You and your daughter sound like really nice people, don't get sucked into all this crap.

I'm sending you both blessings and cwtches EM

"but exerting your authority in this way only gets people's backs up and doesn't create willing or good relations. "

And how would you expect a parent enquiring about the school rules, getting clarification on the school rules and then deciding that they don't apply to their child because they don't agree with them to not get the HT's back up or create good relations?

Mayorquimby - the mother did make the right decision. This HT has failed to deal with bullying and failed to handle this situation with any sensitivity. From what has been said by the OP, the HT seems to be inflexible at best. Just because a teacher makes a decision, it doesn't automatically follow that it was the right one or should be followed blindly.
When children are sent to school, a parent is trusting the school to keep them safe, but not agreeing that the school has the right to make parenting decisions for the child. That is why schools need parental permission to take children off site and why parents come into school to administer medicine if necessary.
On the whole I am supportive of teachers and schools, but these are run by people and we don't all share the same viewpoint. I would not blindly support something I felt was wrong if it affected my children.

mayorquimby - Yorkshiremix was reasonable in her request, it couldn't be used as a mobile phone, could only be used as a camera and to listen to music to. The head, if she had better management skills and could think laterally, could have compromised in some way not to get the parent's back up - such as Tinuviel's suggestion - that way she could have maintained good relations. She was heavy handed. She was the professional in this relationship but didn't act professionally, she acted emotionally I think - got at the parent through the child because said parent questioned her judgement. Not professional; schools don't know everything and aren't always right. And sometimes they do need to be questioned. If the HT had any sense she would have thought about it more and backed down, but they never do.

The headteacher said that mobile phones were forbidden.
The OP gave details and asked them to reconsider, and was told no.
The OP sent the phone anyway.
The phone was confiscated.

This isn't about viewpoints, it's about whether the school has any authority to take action when a rule is deliberately broken.

I don't see how you can say you are supportive of teachers and schools, if you are only prepared to support their decisions when you agree with them. You also have to support their right to set and enforce rules.

You can go and argue that the rule is wrong, and should be changed, but so long as it stands you have to accept that, if you break it, there will be consequences.

Plenty of people demonstrate against laws that they disagree with, but if they break those laws they are still jailed for it.

The way I see it, it shouldn't have got as far as a rule being broken - the head should have taken on board that the parent's request was being reasonable and allowed it. The HT didn't need to take it that far. Anyone querying why X had a mobile phone with her could have just been told it's not a working phone, it's being used as an ipod/camera. It's not about breaking rules, it's about questioning rules that don't make sense. As a parent you should be able to question something that's stupid. You'd hope the school would have the intelligence to realise they are not always right. And the HT probably did but she was bloody minded enough to not back down.