advice needed about poo (sorry tmi i know!)

[insywinsyspider]

i'm concerned that my ds has an intollerance to something, thinking back i think its dairy as ever since it was introduced we've had very sloppy nappies/poos in potty, stuffy nose and cough, he's 10 mo so i put it down to teething and then just being winter but now if seems to have been going on a while - i stopped bfeeding at 7 mo and he's having 2 feeds of formula a day now plus eating pretty much everything, except tomato because i cut that out when he stopped sleeping through and it looked like he had colic and it worked.

I was worried about a wheat intollerance because dh is intollerant but noticed no change to ds when introduced wheat at 9 mo... any ideas? bought some goats milk today to put on cereal instead and was going to make a week or so dairy free to see if that helped his general health (in saying that he is very happy in him self i just know he's not 100%) but if he's having formula surely i won't see much difference??

any advice greatly received! what would give him such constantly sloppy nappies? (btw putting him on the potty as if he poo's in nappy and sits in it for more than a minute he gets bad nappy rash as poo seems really acidic... is that symtomatic of something?)

hi incywincy

i'm no expert on these matters, but i think you're wise to consider intolerance as the culprit of the poo issue. it could be anything, but go with your gut instict in the first instance. if i were you, i would cut out dairy altogether for many weeks and then slowly re-introduce certain products bit by bit when the poo has returned completely to normal. HOWEVER, he does need his milk in some form so first you will have to consider how to manage with the formula. if you have a sympathetic HV or Dr., that would be a good starting point. It is likely that the whole thing will be dismissed as "babies get messy nappies", but you might get lucky. There are alternatives to cows-based formulas, but i don't know much about these.

I was recommended a book by Suzannah Olivier, and I pass on that recommendation, as I have been weaning to avoid allergies which run in the family. She has written several on infant nutrition. I found her writing very useful, especially on the allergy/ intolerance front.

My LO had diarrhoea for nearly 3 weeks over Xmas which was a viral nasty bug going 'round. It was quite grim and his poo was extremely acidic. At its worst (3 hr car drive in holiday season at the onset of the diarrhea- nice), his nappy rash resembled burns. DH and I put down plastic and took turns holding him upright w/o nappy on for a chunk of time each day to let the air get to it. I cut up old sheets to use on his bottom with warm water instead of wet wipes and patted dry with soft towels before applying metanium. I hate meds and chemicals but this stuff- which in many ways I really don't like- is actually wonder cream for bad baby butts. It was the only thing that worked. It's worth a try if you haven't done so already.

I hope he gets better soon.

The sitting in poo thing - yes he will be reacting to the protein in the milk (or whatever it is) which is now in his poo.

Are you just giving him formula - or regular milk too? Is he having yohurt etc, What's his skin like?

A week will make no difference at all (sorry). A strict complete exclusion when he is otherwise well for at least 2 weeks.

I am now gluten free but before I realised this was actually my problem I avoided dairy because I couldn't have both gluten and dairy. Now I'm wheat free I can tolerate much greater amounts of dairy - but still not milk. So maybe he would be okay with cereal or milk, but not milk and cereal.

nachomama - i've asked hv and gp about his nappies before and its been dismissed as a bug (we had the horrible diarrhoea in Feb for a week then sickness everytime he had cows milk based products for 2 more weeks) too much fruit and veg or too much water !?! have to say I wasn't convinced!
we use reusable nappies (also motivation to use the potty!) so i've always used flannels and water to wipe and at the moment patting him dry and using sudocream seems to help but he has a dry scabby bum where the poo has been

twentypence - i'm giving him 14oz of formula (7oz morning and night) a day and then cows milk on his cereal, yoghurt, cheese etc, his skin has dry patches but looks very healthy - which is prob why hv and gp don't think there's an issue.
The wheat/dairy combination is interesting - dh is only wheat intollerant but MIL is allergic and say's she feels much better now she switched to soya milk...

this whole allergy thing is a nightmare! I know with ds is mild whatever it is and it would be lovely just to ignore it but i know he's not right - will try excluding dairy for a couple of weeks and see where that gets us...

anyone got any advice about formula?

Hello again Insywinsy

I am sorry I can't help with the formula thing, but I will say that I too use cloth nappies. However, when the diarrhoea was at its worst, I opted for planet-killing landfillers as 1) I could not keep up with the washing {we changed at every poo- something like 14 times one day, during day and several at night}, and 2) the liquid in poo did absorb in the disposables but remained wet in cloth, which really irritated the already-raw skin. I usually use sudocreme if his bum looks red, but it did nothing for the terrible rash he had at the time; metanium was the only thing that cleared it up.

As for the "too much water" suggestion, that sounds very dubious to me, I must say! If you're feeling up to battle, you could go back in to the surgery and reel off the facts, state that you have a strong suspicion of dairy intolerance, and you would like their help- in the first instance with non-dairy formula. You may not be up to being dismissed out-of-hand, though, and that is understandable. We've been there, done that, etc etc. Do what's right for you.

Have you/ would you consider complementary treatment? It's not free, but ime you're more likely to receive a welcome ear to your queries and a holistic approach.

Maybe he did have a bug - he needs some probiotics for that to replace any bacteria.

At 10month old with a family history of allergy (and these symptoms) he shouldn't be having milk or wheat at all.

thanks for your help - i'm going to have to go back to the hv and get some advice (and be very firm that there is an issue!) as i really don't have a clue where to start, i'm nevous about cutting down on dairy let alone cutting it out as i know he needs it at this age and i don't have a clue how to do a wheat and dairy free diet... i'd struggle to know what to cook him (as lame as that sounds)

You cook him veg and meat. Rice porridge for breakfast (made with water). You do not get all het up about him needing variety - there are lots of fruit and veg out there which can be boiled, stir fried, steamed, baked and roasted. That will be his variety.

But yes, he does need a special formula at this age. It is perfectly possible to acheive great growth not eating dairy and wheat before 12 months or indeed at all.

don't give him soya milk. It's been linked to nut allergy and you don't want to risk that. Ask your doctor if you can try a couple of weeks of Pepti Junior. There are other things like neocate and nutramigen. You may have to mix half formula to get a child to take them. At 10 months they don't need to have cows milk, you can just use formula, any formula is less allergenic than whole milk.

Also ask about probiotics. "Temporary" lactose intolerance is common after a virus and babies benefit from probiotics afterwards. You can also buy online lactase drops which would help is you suspect intolerance and your doctor won't prescribe lactose free milk.

Water is much better to clean them than wet wipes.

how do you give probiotics? i'm only aware of ones that come in yoghurt based foods... sorry if being thick!

I don't live in the UK but when ds was 10-24 months old he had a powder form which we mixed with pureed fruit and gave him before breakfast.

Now he has a chewable tablet. I believe it's okay (but expensive) to shake out the powder from an adult tablet and use that.

grrr went to hv today and said to wait another two weeks to see if it would get better! advised giving probiotic yoghurt!! clearly didn't listern to a word i said about dairy all she kept saying was he looks fine and healthy...

on plus side cut all dairy, restricted wheat and stuck with normal formula and starting to see an improvement, think i'm on the right track

anyone from the UK got advice on finding powdered probiotic? forgot to say ds was on antibiotics from birth so not supprised his system is a bit out of wack, at least i bf him for 7 mo if ever have another will bf for longer i think!

probiotic drinks have naff all probiotic in!

GG culturelle are really good probiotics - you can get them by mail order from Nutrilink 01626 205417

you just break open the capsule and mix it with a bit of food like into a spoon of pureed fruit.

Hi I gave DS (he was 10 months at time) a probiotic which I think was called Pre Bio or something similar and I got it in our local health food shop. It was an adult powdered one in capsule form that I opened and poured about a quarter of into his morning milk (but you could sprinkle on cereal or whatever is easier). I then had the rest so as not to waste it!

I started to give it to him as he was constantly ill with colds etc and he did seem a lot healthier on that front, but after about 10 days (there were 40 capsules in pack and it recommended taking whole course), he started getting runny nappies which lasted about a month. HV thought it might be the probiotic making him poo so much (runny nappies about 5 times a day), so I stopped giving it to him (only had about 3 left in pack). It did gradually get better but I have no idea if the probiotic caused it, esp as it was about 10 days after we started using them. Hv said that probiotic is often recommended for children who are constipated as it helps get things moving...

Anyway, sorry such a long story but just wanted to warn you that it might have CAUSED runny nappies in my DS, rather than helped. Might have been no connection though.

Hello again Insywinsy. I've got probiotic in liquid form for DS. It's manufactured by the same folk who make Infacol, so it is formulated for babies. You just put a few drops on a spoon or mix it in with food. I got it at local chemists, but you have to ask for it as it is kept in the fridge. And it's ten quid [reluctant face]. But I'm glad to hear that things are moving in the right direction (pardon the pun) for your LO.

Link on this page to probiotics and helping infectious diarrhoea

www.liv.ac.uk/evidence/evidenceupdate/home.htm

search mumsnet and places to get probiotics have been posted before

thanks everyone - tried boots but they said there was nothing on the market so going to try health food shop next especially since you guys have said there is something i can use!

bigegglittleegg - good advice about poss causing runny nappies but since we're at that point now i might give it a go

past two days we've moved onto mucusy nappies... is it a transition stage? actually slightly more worrying than the runny ones

sorry will stop giving daily updates soon

Insywincyspider, I haven't had time to go through all the responses, but I think that you are probably very right in suspecting an allergy/intolernace, especially as there is a family history. Your original posts sounds like it could have been mine about my ds2 almost 18 months ago, especially about how if he sits in a diry nappy for more than a minute or 2 he breaks out in horrendous nappy rash. My ds is exactly the same with his poos, he gets very sloppy nappies (he's now 2.9 months but shows no interest in potty training!), passes lots of mucous and you can actually smell the acidity in the nappy (sorry if TMI). The poor little guy suffers from bad nappy rash, weeping, open bleeding sores. As a matter of fact, i have just changed the 3rd dirty nappy since lunchtime, apart from the wet ones and I can see he is starting to get sore

Ds2 is allergic to many things, but it is his wheat allergy that causes him to be like this. Does your ds have dark circles under his eyes? This is another tell tale sign I have when he is on the verge of a reaction.

I have to say that i am suprised that your HV didn't take it more seriously. How about trying your GP? When I suspected allergies in my ds, we bypassed everyone and paid for a private appt and then went to the GP to ask for the referal. Slightly backwards and unorthodox way of doing things, but he was seen very quickly, 2 weeks later. I probably wouldn't cut back too drastically on your ds's diet without the advice or supervision of a medical professional or dietician. My ds is dairy, egg, nut, wheat and prodominantly soya free, but he takes suplements like calcium and a prescribed multivitmain (and possibly starting on iron) to help balance out his diet more.

I hope that you can get to the bottom of this (no pun intended!), it is not nice for you to constantly be wondering and worrying and also not pleasant to watch your child writhe in pain from terrible nappy rash. HUGS

I'm disgusted with Boots - did they have a pharmacist or was it just the shop assistant? There are lots of different probiotics for adults but to get the best choice for babies you may have to shop online or by telephone, especially is you want to go for a dairy free one.

You probably need to see your doctor. A couple of weeks on a dairy free formula (and using that in food too) will tell you if milk is the problem. If it isn't you can get a dairy based probiotic much more easily than a non dairy one. Milk intolerance is far more common than most gps realise, although thankfully most babies outgrow it. Your gp can refer you to a dietician and they are sometimes better informed than gps about allergy/intolerance.

You can buy lactase easily in infacol but if you have a lactose intolerant baby they'd drink bottles of that without a lot of difference, they need more lactase that it contains. If you can't get anything else locally, though, and don't want to shop online you could try that. Holland & Barrett bigger branches sell lactase but as tablets so not suitable for babies unless you can crush them. Problem would be knowing how much to give.

tatt - it was the pharmacist but went to holland and barrat and they were much more helpful, got one that is suitable for vegans so hopefully will help, i was away last night and today but dh says he was getting a better nappy followed but a bad one later but still heading in the right direction

heartmum2jamie - i'm giving it another week on dairy free and restricted wheat then heading to gp, he doesn't have dark cicles under his eyes and is actually, generally, a happy baby just the nappies and congestion - this week though the nappy rash has completely cleared up! it might just be that he was completely thrown by the D&V bug and needed a 'gentle' diet to get his system back into balance - keeping my fingers crossed!

insywinsyspider i can recommend these 2 books which might be useful for you. What Should I Feed my Baby by SUzannah Olivier and Optimum Nutrition for Babies and Young Children by Lucy BUrney. They both have some useful information on dairy and wheat free diets for babies with recipes and menus suggestions and good lists of substitutions that are suitable for babies. They are both available on Amazon quite cheap, or try your library or if you get really desperate i could copy the relevant sections and send them to you?

Insywinsy - it could be that rather than lactose intolerance, it could be milk protein intolerance. Heartmum2Jamie's description sounds similar to mine too, with the supposed "nappy-rash" that is more like bleeding sores as she described. But my son is not "allergic" to anything other than house-dust mite!

My story sounds very like yours, but I failed to get it sorted until ds was 2 years old(interestingly following a d&v bug too)! I stopped bf at 7 months, and he started acidic-like poo, that would literally 'burn' his skin within a very short time. His bottom would be bleeding within 3 minutes of a dirty nappy.

Because I failed to get it sorted my son became anaemic, due to internal bleeding in the gut and from his bottom, he lost weight over a year and is only now beginning to catch up again. I just say this to caution you not to ignore your gut instincts like I did when talking to so-called professionals.

I have to say that: trying to establish the intolerance, without the aid of a dietician, would have been nearly impossible. (my ds is also intolerant to MSG) Wheat causes ezema in my ds but not the stomach issues as far as we are aware. We are still learning now!

Also - you said you introduced goats milk - my son is intolerant to the protein in the goats milk too, as I said it is a very difficult area to deal with. If you want to ask me further questions about my learning curve in this area with my son, please do. I hope you get the answers soon.

yum03 - ds only had goats milk for two days then i decided i needed to get rid of all milk protein to give it a go, nappy rash has completely cleared up and he is still on formula milk (apitmel stage 1) do you think this is an indication it isn't an allergy/severe intollerance? i'm still hopefull that i can help him!

how did you start with your son? was it from advice from gp initially? am planning on giving it another week to see if situation improves then taking him to gp (although feel like we've been there so much this year!)

thanks for book reccomendations sar - holding off buying any yet as so far have been ok at finding variety (after initially worrying!) but will have a look in library

insywinsy - I am not sure, I would have thought that the formula would have still caused a reaction, but then if you have dramatically reduced milk protein intake, it could be that the symptoms are just reduced too.

I got my gp to refer to a paediatrician, who then put me in touch with the dietician. Do be careful about cutting out milk protein products for too long, as you need to make sure that he is getting sufficient calcium,riboflavin and vit D, but he may be getting enough from the formula.

I have quite a bit of literature given to me on milk intolerance/allergy so could pass on further info if needed, but I think that seeing a dietician is very important too.

there have been some threads about getting poo samples analysed to see if the problem is lactose or cows milk intolerance. Babies usually outgrow milk protein intolerance and lactose intolerance is often "temporary" - although that can mean months - after an infection. So hopfully all this will be just an unpleasant memory for you in a few months.

If the probiotics don't help try lactase.