I can't believe how people are talking about adoptions ...

[ellabella4ever]

... on the In the news section. They are discussing the recent case where Appeal Court judges have decided that the medical evidence against a couple who had their three children taken off them was probably flawed. However, the judges believe it is in the best interests of the children to remain with their adoptive parents.

What I can't believe is the number of people who think the kids should be returned to their birth parents and that the adoptive parents are being selfish in not offering to do so.

Thought I'd ask for the views of other ADOPTIVE parents.

My DD is 4.3 and we adopted her when she was 12 months old. Can you imagine the grief and trauma it would cause her if she was taken away from us - her mummy and daddy!

Not an adoptive parent, but really really feel the interest of the child has to be the most important thing, horrific that this happened, but I think if my birth dd had been taken away and several years later the decision was over turned I (I hope) would want her to stay with adoptive parents, no way for everyone (or anyone) to win I feel in this situation.

Ella, I just ranted on the other thread and think I'd better turn off the PC before I get drawn into an argument. It's only ignorance of what child protection is actually about. Go up and give your DD a kiss, that's what I'm going to do.

FWIW it's quite common for people to have quite extreme/misconceived views about adoption, I had to bite my tongue at some of what was said during the Haringey outcry last year.

Turning PC off and going to kiss sleeping daughter as instructed by blithedance - thanks

The case discussed is slightly different from yours, ella. Not all the children were small enough to forget their birth parents and settle down happily with their new adopted parents.

Supposing someone came and made a false accusation against you now, to the effect that you were abusing your adoptive daughter. Suppose it was believed and that you lost your court case. Suppose that your dd was freed for adoption within a fairly short time. Your dd, like the older of the children in the Webster case, would still remember you as her mum, wouldn't she, and quite likely to be desperate to get back to you.

If new evidence emerged and you believed she was still missing you- would you not fight to get her back? Your own beloved adopted dd, the one you have just been to kiss, and who might for all you know be sobbing her heart out for you every evening.

Or do you assume that if your dd was taken away from you now, at her age, that she would just happily forget about you?

I really think the Webster case was a very difficult one, particularly as not all the children were tiny.

My dd was a little older than the oldest Webster child when we had fears of her being taken away. I am absolutely sure that she would not have forgotten us and that, however kind her new adopted parents, she would have been desperate for us to come and take her back.

I think I might go and kiss her now, actually. That kind of protective love is not confined to adoptive parents.

"That kind of protective love is not confined to adoptive parents"

Who bloody well suggested it was?

Well, if it did happen to you now- how would you feel?

If your beloved adopted daughter was taken away from you and handed over to new adopted parents, if you believed that she might be missing you and wondering why you didn't bother to come and find her- do you still think it would be just selfishness on your part to want to find her and reassure her?

Would you be able to just let her go?

I would have fought it straightaway and thus avoided her being freed for adoption. I would have found expert witnesses that proved I didn't harm her. I wouldn't have left it five years.

And suppose there weren't any expert witnesses at that time? Supposing no doctor happened to think of the scurvy suggestion or agreed to give witness on your behalf? How exactly would you find an expert witness when you have no idea yourself what is wrong with your child? When you don't know what kind of doctor to ask for?

How excactly would you keep fighting? What chance would an appeal have of going through if there was no new evidence?

The accounts of this court case all make it clear that the reasons the Websters were not believed on the medical claim was because they thought it was brittle bone disease and there was not the medical evidence to support that. Can you blame them for that?

Even the doctor who did finally diagnose scurvy said how absolutely understandable it was that no other doctors had spotted it, as the child did not show the classic symptoms of scurvy.

I have been in the situation of trying desperately to find a doctor to diagnose my dd while having no idea what type of expert to ask for- if you don't know what on earth is wrong, you don't know who would be able to diagnose it either. It was the merest fluke that we did find the right kind of doctor- and dd's condition is an awful lot more common than the Webster child's.

Cory - with respect this discussion is being conducted on the In the News topic board and I have contributed to it with several posts. There's no point in rehashing it over here. I started this thread to find out the views of other ADOPTIVE parents about the way adoptive families are being discussed on this board and the trauma it would cause our children to be removed from us and returned to birth parents. The rights and wrongs of the Webster's case wasn't the point of this thread - like I said the In the News board is thrashing that out.

I was asking for the views of ADOPTIVE parents who, for one reason or another, are not joining in the other discussion. Clearly they don't want to discuss it here either, which is fine

Cory reraising this thread 5 days after it was last posted on and saying the same thing to ellabella that you have said on the other thread does smack rather of harassment. Which I hope you don't really intend.

BEsides the repeated argumetn is not whether any child removed from any paretns at say aged 4 would be traumatised but that whether it is in their best interest to be removed again 5 years later.

No-one can know the answer to that. Court has decided better for the chidlren to stay where they are (also contributed to by the difficulty in law telling legal parents to give their child away).

I like to think I would agree whether I had birth children or adopted children. I think most birth mothers who raise their children can't conceive of a situation where their children might be better off being raised by someone else.

For the record Ella- I have been saddened by the number of people on that thread who have make it clear (some explicitly) that they see adoption as a poor second choice. When the truth is that in the majority of cases adoption is the only sensible safe long term solution.

SOrry, I didn't realise the thread was old or I certainly wouldn't have done it. It was fairly high up towards the top, but I suppose that's because there are fewer posts in this forum. I certainly have no intention of folllowing ella round the board and harrassing her.

And please note, that as I not only someone who has feared the removal of a child but also a product of an adopted family, I do not take one side only.

My interest is in having the situation seen from both sides, presented in a balanced way on all threads, so that noone ends up reading only one thread and thinking 'oh, it's perfectly clear cut'.

If you read all my posts on the other thread, you will find that I also speak strongly in support of adopted parents and the adoption process. That is what I am trying to do, pointing out that there are two both perfectly valid viewpoints here (and I have personal experience from both sides).

I have certainly never suggested that adoption is a poor second choice. I lived adoption throughout my childhood, my brother is a very happy man, and we are an extremely close-knit family. I am sure he does not feel that we are a poor second choice.

But I do apologise from reviving this thread. It was a genuine mistake.

this forum is unusually quiet at the moment and yes I know that you don't have the same view of adoption as some on the other thread.

Ella - as a non adoptive parent i can totally see your point. Your child has lived with you for x amount of years and is therefore , in all senses of the words apart from biologically, yours.

Thereiin however lies the rub. Biologically. Biology and hormones have ways of doing funny things with us as does nature . If you imagine - I do not know whether you have birth children as well - that you have a birth child and that it has been removed from you for no good reason ( I am not saying in this case there was no good reason btw just putting forward a supposition) and that you think about it , dream about it and agonise over that child every day ( what is he eating, drinking ,wearing , learning etc) and then have a chance of having the child back , it would be a very odd parent indeed who would not pursue that.

Having had 5 birth dcs I know that , g-d forbid, if anything happened and one was taken away from me I'd move heaven and earth and the stars and moon to get it back no matter how long - 2 years or 20 years - to get it back as I'd feel that its rightful place is wiht me. Biology is a strong link and a strong pull and the agony of knowing your child is out there but unreachable/untouchable must be enough to drive a person insane. I know we used ot have a poster on here called Bungle many years back who was in a similar type position having had her children removed due to a miscarriage of justice I believe and the pain she eloquently conveyed in her posts was pitiful and humbling. There was nothing she would not have done to have had the chance to even touch her childrne again.

Cory - I have read your posts on that thread and was moved by the comment you made that your "worst nightmare" would have been your (adopted) brother being removed from your family (sorry for paraphrasing).

You must admit that adoptive parents are having some cheap shots hurled at them on that thread (apparently we're not "real" parents, adoptive families are "second best" and we're being told, repeatedly, they should "give the kids back") and I just started this thread so we could support each other. However, no-one else seems to need that so I guess I should just walk away from that other thread secure in the knowledge that my DD thinks I'm the "best mummy ever"

I think it is a terribly sad story but I do think the children should be returned to their natural family.

I also think the adoptive parents shoul dbe fast tracked to adopt again.

"I would have fought it straightaway and thus avoided her being freed for adoption. I would have found expert witnesses that proved I didn't harm her. I wouldn't have left it five years"

That comment has really annoyed me and it isn't just "ADOPTIVE" parents that have views on this.

You wouldn't necessarily have been able to avoid her being freed for adoption.

You can't possibly know what the parents have done to try and get their children back.

"I also think the adoptive parents should be fast tracked to adopt again"

Sorry Nabster but thast like saying to a parent whose child has died - never mind you can have more.

I agree with Ella - I would prefer this discussion to continue on the main news topic.

Oh God - I'm outta here

That isn't how it was meant at all and I would appreciate it if you would take that back.

I was merely meaning they shouldn't have to wait the years it often takes when you apply to adopt.

I think that it should solely be what is in the best interests of the child whoever that is (for youngest children it would likely be the adoptive parents).

I am coming from a perspective where my foster daughter's mother wants her removed because dd 'likes me and is doing too well at your house'. She utterly fails to see what is in the best interests of her child and never considers her needs. She has been gleeful the last few years as she got into trouble because it 'proved' she was a 'difficult child who wasn't loveable' - now that she's well and happy she's annoyed.

Sorry, started to rant there at the end

Oh God, sounds like my mother 30 odd years ago. I was happy and she demanded I be moved. I wasn't happy. She stayed away.

the problem is Ella is that this is an open forum and it's difficult to confine the discussion to adoptive paretns even if you post it in the adoption section (as you have now discovered). Most of us don't particularly want to be bombarded with more messages of how in that position we should give the chldren back in our own backyard (as it were).

Most of us feel sensitive about it but tbh probably no less sensitive than a birth parent who is imagining their child being taken away. Its all our worst nightmares.

for the record - (whoever said it and several have) - its pointless saying "I think they should give the childrne back" unless you accept thats not part of the discussion just havign your own voice heard. I don't, and saying you do without any coherent argument doesn't sway me.

I think this is where I fell '
I think that it should solely be what is in the best interests of the child whoever that is (for youngest children it would likely be the adoptive parents).'
after sitting on the fence throughout that thread. I just can't imagine the anguish on any side well perhaps a little more on the biological parents side simply because my children are genetically mine but I can also fully understand that the love and care that adoptive parent have for their child is as strong and important as that of biological parents.

I'm sorry that adoptive parents got such a bashing on that thread as it was really uncalled for. Not very mney but Ella {hugs}. I really hope that adoptive parents don't think that the rest of us think they are second best because I know I don't and I'm sure the majority of others don't either.

sorry Nabster but I susepct that any adoptive paretn being faced with losing their child would interpret your commetn in the saem way.

If anything (god forbid) were to happen to DS I'm not sure I could ever stomach the thought of replacing him - fasttracked or not. Its not an appropriate comment.

I'm off too Ella. Work to do...