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Original poster

I can't believe how people are talking about adoptions ...

69 replies

ellabella4ever · 13/02/2009 22:15

... on the In the news section. They are discussing the recent case where Appeal Court judges have decided that the medical evidence against a couple who had their three children taken off them was probably flawed. However, the judges believe it is in the best interests of the children to remain with their adoptive parents.

What I can't believe is the number of people who think the kids should be returned to their birth parents and that the adoptive parents are being selfish in not offering to do so.

Thought I'd ask for the views of other ADOPTIVE parents.

My DD is 4.3 and we adopted her when she was 12 months old. Can you imagine the grief and trauma it would cause her if she was taken away from us - her mummy and daddy!

OP posts:
TheFallenMadonna · 18/02/2009 12:45

lisalisa - as a biological parent you put those powerful feelings down to biology, but offer no evidence that they are in fact due to that. If Kewcumber or ella told you they had the same feelings for their children would you just not believe them?

I'm not an adoptive parent (although I do have one), and I do think it's hard not to identify with the equivalent set of parents in this case. I was wondering how I would feel if one of my children turned out not to be my biological child due to a hospital mix up, as was uncovered fairly recently in Romania (?). Could I give my child up then? Impossible case IMO. Awful. Yet you'd think it was so simpel from some of the posts on the other thread.

lisalisa · 18/02/2009 13:27

thefallenmadonna - yes , I would believe them. I put down feelings for bio child simply because it is bio parents in this case who are having to justify their desire to have their child back.

this case simply feels so unjust to me as if bio parents have done nothing wrong ( and I offer no opinion on that ) and have had their child taken away then that child must be reutrned otherwise it would be one of the biggest miscarriages of justice I could ever imagine ( and again i am imagining this situation happening in my family where i am unjustly accused and lose one of my darling dcs to have it adopted and then , after proving I am innocent, am refused its return). The pain would surely kill a person?>

TheFallenMadonna · 18/02/2009 13:33

It is a horrible, horrible case. And one in which each possible outcome seems unjust for at least one of the protagonists. Impossible for outsiders to have nay idea of how justice would be best served IMO.

lisalisa · 18/02/2009 13:34

Yes agreed there although once proven innocent the law has a duty to recompense a person has best it can.

Nabster · 18/02/2009 13:37

You can't legislate for how someone is going to take a comment.

Having lost 2 children I am well aware that they can't be replaced.

TheFallenMadonna · 18/02/2009 13:40

But not by using other people though surely?

How owuld one go about proving ones innocence in this case? Have they actually a conviction they can appeal against?

expatinscotland · 18/02/2009 13:42

'My DD is 4.3 and we adopted her when she was 12 months old. Can you imagine the grief and trauma it would cause her if she was taken away from us - her mummy and daddy!'

probably the same amount of trauma those children felt being taken away from their birth parents who were not abusing them.

most people on that thread are having a sensible discussion about how the law needs to provide flexibility for cases of miscarriage of justice/mistakes, which are intrinsic to any system, not saying children should be whipped out of their beds and given over.

charitygirl · 18/02/2009 13:47

Leaving aside this case, and any specific comments here, in general people are veeeery ignorant about both the practical and psychological/emotional sides of adoption I find, and are prone to making crass statements about it (comparable to those made to, and about women, struggling to conceive - the classic crossover comment being 'just adopt', which both misunderstands the feelings of the TTCer and perpetuates a myth that adoption can or should be entered into lightly to 'rescue' a child').

FriarKewcumber · 18/02/2009 14:19

to be fair expat - quite a lot of people on that thread have said that the children should just be given back.

expatinscotland · 18/02/2009 14:57

Well, you're right, Friar, but I just tune them out .

Rhubarb · 18/02/2009 15:08

Ok, let's look at it from the birth parents point of view. The mother has carried those children around in her womb for 9 months each, she laboured with those children, her and the father bonded with them. She may have breastfed them. They weaned them, watched them take their first steps, comforted them when they cried, they LOVED those children.

Then they are falsely accused of the most despicable crime and their world falls apart.

Do you think they can ever stop loving those children?

It's a highly emotive subject and no doubt you would say that the adoptive parents have created their own bonds with the children too. But your argument is biased, coming into it as adoptive parents yourselves. The other argument is also biased as most people on there have never adopted and are biological parents.

It's incredibly difficult to know what to do for the children's best interests.

There was a film once, I forget it's name. A drug-addled mother had her daughter kidnapped and 2 detectives were put on the case. After many twists and turns it turned out that the girl was kidnapped by the Chief of Police who had lost his own daughter and saw the opportunity to give this little girl another life, a better life, with him and his wife. The detective had a dilemma, does he leave the girl with these loving, rich parents or return her to her drug-addict single mother? The decision he made cost him the woman he loved and his job - he told the authorities and the girl was returned to her birth mother.

FriarKewcumber · 18/02/2009 15:41

It's incredibly difficult to know what to do for the children's best interests - 100% agree and yes of course we are all biased by our personal experiences.

However I would say the majority of people who posted in the other thread have not said that, they have said "return the children".

They don't see that removing the children (however humanely) from everything they know can be incredibly damaging, arguing that it has happened once so it can happen again.

The difference from an adopters point of view is that the vast majority of us have seen how very difficult the transition is, even when carefully handled.

I do not argue the case becasue I'm an adoptive paretn and I'm projecting myself into the situation because it would (sadly) be a virtual impossibility for DS's brith family to ever be traced, but because I have paretned a child during and after this transition and it can be a great deal more difficult than anyone who hasn't experienced it can understand.

I get the feeling that people feel biology is enough and will win out in the end, and will not countenance the idea that these childrne might love their adoptive parents every bit as much as they would have loved their birth parents had they remained with them.

Sorry that was way more than I had meant to post as I've really said everything I think on this and have nothing a real substance to add.

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 19/02/2009 11:28

That isn't how it was meant at all and I would appreciate it if you would take that back.

nabster - that's exactly what you implied. you really don't get it - if their kids were removed they absolutely shouldn't be fasttracked to adopt again because they would be grieving their children and not in a fit state to adopt more. you clearly think that adoptive parents aren't really parents so you should probably stay off this board.

Nabster · 19/02/2009 11:53

You also have me wrong.

Of course I know they would have suffered which is why I felt they should be given the option of being fast tracked if they wanted it.

You have no idea how I feel about adoption and I am entitled to post where I like.

expatinscotland · 19/02/2009 12:45

Much as I disagree with Nabster's views she is correct in that this is not the type of board where people go about demanding of posters to retract their opinions or apologise for them.

So long as one is not being personally abusive a poster is allowed to express her opinion on this board, however distasteful others might find it.

Nabster · 19/02/2009 12:54

I never meant to be distasteful.

I can't help it if people read something that isn't there.

I have been both sides of the coin and have lost children.

expatinscotland · 19/02/2009 12:58

I know you didn't mean it, it is your opinion and you have not expressed it in a mean-spirited tone so you are entitled to it and to express it.

Nabster · 19/02/2009 13:20

Thank you.

FriarKewcumber · 19/02/2009 14:14

though interestingly Nabs, you did expect me to retract how I interpreted your comment. My interpration was hardly a stretch so I'm sure many people would have interpreted it in the same way.

I accept that you didn't mean it that way and hope that you realise how tactless it sounds to an adoptive parent. I think I am sensitised by the other thread where it became apparent how many people believe that adoptive parents losing their children is somehow less of an issue than it is for birth parents.

hifi · 19/02/2009 14:24

jesus nabster you surely hit below the belt. having been one of these adopters who lose their prospective adopted child its not an easy solution to say just fast track them.we wernt ready to just adopt another, strangely we loved our child and it has taken a long time to come to terms with the loss. my mum and mil are still devastated as are most of our family.

FriarKewcumber · 19/02/2009 14:37

that sad thing is the discussion about "just" giving the children back has really made me think about how people interpret what I post about DS.

Are they all really thinking "Oh how cute she really thinks she loves him as much as we love our bio children"

Its been a real shock to me to realise how many MN'ers think that if DS's birth mother turned up in three years time and said he was stolen from her against her will that I should just be expected to give him back to her and wave goodbye.

Rhubarb · 19/02/2009 14:58

But turn it around, what if your child was taken from you and re-homed. Would you ever stop thinking about that child? Stop loving it? If you found out where that child was now living, would you not do everything you could to get your child back?

FriarKewcumber · 19/02/2009 15:09

yes of course and not one adoptive parent has disputed that. I don't understand why anyone think we aren't empathetic to that; where has a single adoptive parent said otherwise?

Very very many people seem to think its nothing for an adoptive parent to give back a child that they love though.

Nabster · 19/02/2009 15:13

I will apologise here and now for any upset caused. Even though some of you have read things that aren't there, I am willing to apologise.

Bottom lilne - these biological parents have done no wrong so why should they have lost their children? Clearly the adoptive parents haven't done anything either and you could equally argue they shouldn't lose their children. How on earth do you decide who shall have the children? I have to be honest and say the biological parents as they were the parents first in this case.

I am well aware that no child can be replaced. I think of the ones I lost every day.

Again, apologies.

frogs · 19/02/2009 15:16

Oh Kew, I don't think that at all! I wouldn't presume to judge the quality of any parent's love for their dc.

But I think the situation where a child has lived with a particular parent (bio or non-bio) for a significant length of time and has built up a bond with them is different from a situation where a child is adopted at a very young age, or having never lived with their bio parents.

It's a hideous situation for all concerned, because there's no ideal outcome. Once this knowledge is in the public domain, even if the adoption has been a complete success, surely there'd always be the worry that the children might at some stage turn round and blame the adoptive parents for keeping them away from the bio parents. Presumably the story can't be kept from the dc, or not indefinitely? There's the potential for huge hurt to them whatever decisions are made.
But simply giving them back to the bio parents would be hugely traumatic also.

Is there not a case to be made out for moving slowly towards a more open adoption, where the children are at least introduced the bio parents as additional figures in their lives? Or is that not a possible option?