Not sure this is going to work out.....

[mummyBop]

After a good start, things have got steadily worse over the past two weeks and I'm not sure this placement is going to work out.

I am sick of being used as a punchbag, of getting "no" to every request and the constant demands of attention. We have had some quite extreme behaviour and I am sure I will hit one of them soon if this continues.

I spoke to my social worker last night and she thinks we are doing all the right things, but I can't cope. We're half way through the 2 week April holidays and I am dreading this next week.

So how do you deal with challenging behaviour from three at once; what sanctions actually have an effect; how do you assert your authority, wothout rejecting them. At the moment I have three children running rings round me and I'm sinking in the middle. We are trying to praise the good stuff (actually even the vaguely good stuff), we have sanctions of early bedtimes, timeout in rooms, loss of activities of confisaction of toys, but particularly for the eldest none of these seem to have any effect - she just says "I don't care". When I try to discipline one, the others react agaisnt it and alone its virtually impossible (even with two its hard).

I feel so trapped and the only way out I can see is to send them back - I can't do this anymore. I feel like a failure and a terrible pretend mum.

mBop

Oh mummybop

It sounds frightfully tough for you. But I'm sure you're doing an amazing job and not giving yourself enough credit. My dd's only 10 months old so I can't really offer advice on how to parent older children. All I have to go on is how I was raised, and how I hope to parent my dd.

I was never hit as a child, my mum and dad only had to give me a look and I knew I was up s**t creak. They didn't often need to shout because when I was in trouble, they had an edge to their voice that meant I was in trouble.

Do the children act up together, do they wind eachother up, or are they being naughty on their own? Or both? In our house if we were naughty we were pulled out of the room and made to stand in the hall. The door was always left open so that we didn't feel shut out, just excluded because we had been bad. We were allowed back in once we promised to be good. I fwe weren't, back out we went.

In our house things were never done by hitting or shouting. It was the quieter actions that had the biggest effect. My mum once emptied my room, literally. She left my bed, some clothes and some paper and a pencil to do homework. Everything was put into big black binbags and put out in the garage. Each day/week I had to work to get my stuff back. It took me about 6 months to get it all, and when I was naughty again, they took something back off me. When I say work I don't mean hard labour lol! I was rewarded for good behaviour and helping out etc.

Take away all toys, treats, no pocket money, no sweets. If they can't be good and respect you as their mother, they get nothing. If they are naughty, tell them what they've done wrong and walk away. Ignore them. Children hate to feel pushed out and ignored. The worst thing you can do is give into their demands, because you're then playing to their rules. Think up your rules, and stick to them. Discipline is tough and repetitive, but the earlier you can get it worked out, the better it'll be.

Really don't have anything constructive to add, just wanted to post and wish you luck. You're not a bad parent, never think that. Being a mum is frickin hard work, please try and stay positive though - it does help.

It must be very hard and it does sound as though they are testing you. It is still very early days and I think you need to be easier on youself. You are doing very well to be coping at all with such an instant family - just getting through each day is fine and I am sure it will get better as you start to build up love and trust.

Distraction is useful and maybe at this early stage you could try ignoring some of the bad behaviour and try to distract with an activity before it gets worse.

Have you managed to find things that they enjoy doing or that keep them busy? Physical activity can help - wear them out a bit. Can we help you with ideas for age appropriate activities? Have you got some help and support so that you get some time out?

I am sure it must be utterly exhausting for you at the moment but don't give up - I'm sure it will get better. Maybe also try to spend time alone with each child doing something nice. So that you can build individual relationships and see what makes each of them tick.

Be kind to youself you are doing a great job!

that is very sad, I think you need to make it very clear to your social worker how desparate you are feeling.

But it does sound as though you are being 'tested' - I don't know anything about the backgrounds of your children but they've probably experienced a lot of rejection and insecurity and this is very common behaviour, wanting to make sure that you won't 'reject' them too.

I can't say I 'know' how hard it is with three, as I've only got one but the only thing that seems to work is being consistent and never threatening anything that i don't carry out. I think removal of treats is a good one; a child may say 'I don't care' but that is rubbish, of course they care, this is just another way to try and hide what they are feeling.

But there must be some support out there for you, it would be so sad if this placement broke down, for all of you. Can you call a meeting with your social worker and maybe think about getting some respite care, particularly in the holidays? Maybe you just need a breather and some reassurance that you can do this and you will get through it.

Mummuybop

I know where you are coming from you might remember we also adopted a sibling group of three and boy the holidays are the hardest.

They are probably feeling much more secure now and therefore asserting their power for want of a better word.

It is nothing that you are doing please don't think that. Maybe their Social worker could arrange for them to see CAMHs to talk through their feelings.

When my three are altogether it is really tough at times, we find it better if we split them up and one of us takes one of them off by themselves for some quality time.

It will get better i promise you might just not see it immediately.

Look at adoption uk website as well, they have a good message board as well.

Oh Mummybop, I don't really know what to say, but didn't want to pass your thread without saying anything.

I don't have direct experience, although my B IL and his wife have adopted 2 gorgeous boys (not together). They have exactly the same trials and tribulations as DH and I do with our girls. I think the only difference is that we had ours from birth and so got a bit "used" to their changing moods and personalities, whereas BIL (and you) are starting from a much older place. You also have all the issues with rejection etc which must make it so much harder.

I think you are doing an amanzing job and wanted to send you very best wishes. Do keep talking - on here, to the SWs, to your friends. Take care and remember that you are a TOP mother.

Feel so sorry you're feeling this way Parenting is a very very difficult job. And you've really been thrown in at the deep end.

I was also going to suggest separation - my 3 can be horrific together (occasionally wonderful too!) but almost always totally delightful on a 1 to 1 basis. I have 3, so I know how difficult it can be to achieve this, is your dh at work and you alone with the 3? YOu got 1 more week of school holidays? Are you alone with the 3 for this week? How old are they?

Please don't feel like a failure or 'pretend mummy'. My dh is away atm and at times I find it really hard and have been truly horrid to my boys (who have been truly horrid - they started it!) and I feel guilty and like a truly crap mummy too. YOu're not a 'pretend' mum, you're a struggling one cos you're dealing with extraordinary circumstances. Just like I'm a struggling on atm, and I'm dealing with (very different) extraordinary circumstances too.

It won't always be so hard. It really won't. And w'll all help you as best we can. xx

Please please don't give up. I'm an adoptive mummy to one and have two birth children and when all three are difficult you really do feel like resigning your position!!

You are in the classic testing period with your children - 'will they accept us, no matter what?' You absolutely do NOT have to accept terrible behaviour, but you have to KEEP saying I love you but I am NOT going to let you behave like that.

Always try to tell them what you want them to do, not what they shouldn't do.

Ask your SW whether there's any emergency help, like someone to come in to give you back-up during the worst part of the day.

Keep posting and don't give up - everyone has bad times and early adoptive placements are the worst of anyone's bad times.
x

And yes - splitting them up for separate activities if at all possible. That's where you really need back-up help - someone to take one or two to the park etc

Being outdoors in a big open space for as long as possible is always better than being in.

I would be wary of doing too much punishing at the moment eg taking things away from them, I'd go more for distraction and time away from the scene of the crime.

Mummybop - I have friends who adopted two brothers and went through exactly the same thing. The things they found that worked were:

splitting them up as regularly as possible so that they got some one to one attention. Together they were really hard to handle, but individually, things were much improved.

putting every effort into not getting angry and shouting. These children had been shouted at all their lives. Negative attention was just the same to them as positive attention

Sorry - those things are probably exactly what you're doing anyway, but I just wanted to confirm that you're doing exactly the right things.

The other thing they did was to have a "family story time". They used the book No Matter What, by Debbie Gliori as a basis for discussions. Basically the parent character is questioned by the child character about what would happen in different circumstance and the parent character just keeps saying "I'll love you, no matter what". The good thing is that the characters are not called parents and children - just small and large I think.

Not sure how old your children are, but it might be worth trying it.

oh mummybop - its very very early days yet and to have the holidays so soon after you got them is I'm sure really really hard. I don't doubt that they are testing your limits to find out if you are the final permanent parent who will stick with them (amongst other complicated emotions). Can you remember what they were like when you had them for weekends? They are still those children.

I'm sure that you feel you can't cope with their behaviour but would splitting them up help? At least at weekends - could one of you do "duty" with two at home whilst one gets taken out to do something you an they like.

Two weeks is early for a new discipline regime to work on an older child - it may mean persevering for a while longer. Do consider time out for you when it gets bad. The point at which you feel like you are going to lose it - lock yourself in the toilet and take some deep breaths.

I didn';t have anything like this kind of challenge when adopting DSD but in the early days but idea of a "good" week was one where we both survived and I didn't murder him. Try to look on what you have acheived so far as a success rather than a failure - you have rehosued a complete family who were very attached to their FC's and you are all still alive half way through the Easter Holidays! No mean feat.

Are they old enough (even perhaps the oldest one) to have a sit down adult conversation with them and say "Look this is forever and we need to have at least a degree of calm for us all to be happy. If you insist we can live the rest of our life in conflict but wouldn't it be nicer for us to find something (just one thing) that we agree on and work from there?"

I agree that you need to push your sw harder for more help. Jsut say that she might think you are doing the right things but you still can't cope without more help at least initially.

No advice as such but if you haven't already done so please have a look at the Adoption UK website. They have message boards there for adoptive parents and many, many of them have been in your position and will be able to offer support and advice.

Don't give up, you are not failing. You are doing the very best you can for 3 children who are reacting to a life of uncertainty - it's not you they're reacting against, it's their whole lives.

They're kids, they're confused, they're insecure, they're hurting... they're just seeing whether you realy will be there for them or whether this will be another temporary phase for them. It's so so common (which I know doesn't make it any easier but at least take heart that you're not alone).

Echoing the advice to get yourself on some adoption forums, and also see if any friends or family can come round to help you be able to give each of them some 1:1 time.

Thinking of you but YOU ARE DOING WELL - hang in there.

Dear mummybop, like so many others on here i think that you are doing an amazing thing for these children. I also am not surprised that it is proving very hard on you all at the moment.

Don't forget that those of us that have 3 children can also go through extremely stressful times and this is when we had one, then two then three children and have had a chance to grow as parents whilst the children were growing up. You and your dh have been thrown in at the deep end as far as being parents is concerned. Add to that the fact that the children have, I presume, had very difficult early lives and it is not surprising that you are feeling the way you do. (Also school holidays can be the worst of times too)

My thoughts on this are that it may be better to give them a lot of leeway at the moment and leave the discipline for now. Let them know that you don't like the behaviour but then leave it at that. It is such early days yet, they are bound to be pushing the boundaries. Please believe me that there will be plenty of time for establishing discipline etc in the months to come within the loving family that you will become.

You are doing such an amazing thing. You have my utmost admiration. It will all get better in time.

OMG you deserve a medal! Absolutly NO advice, but don't be hard on yourself!

MummyBop

I found this book very helpful when i was struggling with discipline and how to go about it. It has sections that address, specifically, issues with children who have been/felt rejected and unloved in the past, and it outlines a disciplining technique that is a) short and sweet and b) quite simple to do (in theory).

You may find it helpful because the author discusses bonding issues quite a lot, and also tries to outline the difference between punishing and disciplining, which sounds like the sort of thing you need right now.

It's called Good Discipline, Good Kids by Gerald E Nelson

I hope you get some help from your SW, and I hope it also helps to hear that many, many of us feel the same as you. Parenting challenges us in ways we never dreamed, and you have taken on a bigger challenge than most of us. Give yourself time.
Big Hugs.

MummyBop

Not much advice to offer specifically as my DS's are small enough to be picked up still. But it sounds quite normal for it to be overwhelming to have taken on an older, larger sibling group at this early stage. Can you pull in some support, perhaps family/friends to accompany you on some trips out or be in the house as a bit of "security". (Have found I am less likely to feel like walloping kids if another adult around!). In fact, LEAN ON your support network, that's what it's there for.

I read once an adopter wrote "after a week I'd cheerfully have sent them back, after six months I knew I'd never let them go". It is the long haul but I know you will see it through to the good times.

Did you read anything during your prep that it useful to go back to? I keep pulling out Dan Hughes "Building the bonds of attachment", it's such a good book that it's quite in demand on amazon but I will lend you if there's no other way.

MummyBop, I have only skim read.

My 4 dc are all my birth dc, today I feel like hitting them, they have been horrid, I have shouted etc etc etc etc

The holidays are very hard work and you've been thrown in at the deep end. IMHO you sound completely normal.

oh mummybop

You have only had them a little while, so it would be natural for them to push the boundaries and test you. On top of that, you have school holidays (always a challenge) and on top of that you have your feelings of inadequacy.

I know that you love these kids. It has been obvious in your previous posts.

I have no advice, but I can promise you that things will not seem so bad when they have gone back to school. And things will not be so bad by the time half term rolls around.

Sending you hugs and my very best wishes.
xx

Ok have just thought of another couple of things:

• can your LA (or via Adoption UK) match you up with a Buddy - an experienced adopter you can ring up or who will ring you regularly (better) for support and maybe practical advice. This was a big encouragement to me in early days.

• it is a 2-pronged attack, you do have to manage the kids behaviour and it may improve, but you really have to learn some brilliant coping and self-care strategies so YOU can make it however awful the kids are being, and you do only learn that "on the job". If a good rant on MN is part of that, so much the better

Hang on in there MB

Thanks everyone

Today has generally been better - we had a family chat first thing (initiated by our son) and agreed that we couldn't continue as yesterday so they agreed to do some things and we agreed sanctions if they did not. If worked really well (with lots of praise and positive reinformcement) until tea time - then we had a mad half hour when they were hyper, but the older two calmed before bed.

Bedtime with the youngest has been hard - I ended up putting her older sister to bed in our bed as she was screaming and refusing to do anything. She has been pushing for a few days - she wants me to hold her hand (which I am happy to do), but has started to play up, so tonight when she did I said I would walk away and did - it took nearly an hour before she setted herself - I was outside the door and if she shouted me I would just say "goodnight" so she knew I was there. I had to put her back to bed several times, but at least she is now finally asleep. Bedtimes have been harder since the lighter nights, but I think that is normal for most families.

We're off to bed soon - although I have three phonecalls to return (not sure I can be bothered even though two are my mum and best friend).

Thanka agian for all your advice and support- I have skimmed the reponses but will hopefully get chance to read them properly soon.

You have to realise that these children were unsure of themselves, and are gradually accepting you as reality.

They are learning to trust you, and are kicking the boundaries to make you respond in a way they are used to. If you don't respond, they will gradually learn to accept you as their primary carer.

However, if their past history has always been to be moved from one family to another, they will expect the same course of action from you - rejection. This is entirely normal, and can only be overcome by earning their trust.

I don't expect this to be easy, nor that you do not go to bed crying, but the children need the help, and love to become rounded adults.

Some of the things you need to learn, are probably how to distract them, and not confront them. Children do not have a long attention span, and you need to break the pattern of confrontation.

Three children who have suddenly been transplaced to your care, need to be active to take their hurt away. Take them for long walks, tire them out and they won't have the energy to confront you - especially if you set the pace!

The eldest has probably been the "mum" to the others, and is kicking against that. She is starting to show that "she doesnt care" when she most desperately cares that someone show her love and the ability to enjoy childhood. She probably needs you to show that you care. This is entirely normal in the adoption of sibling groups.

The treats can come, and they don't need to be much. Helping in the kitchen, or tackling some more responsible task and PRAISING them for doing it well is adequate. Children relish praise, especially children who have been in care. Sanctions do not work.

I wish you well, its a very hard, but it is extremely rewarding task to take three children whose background is extremely sketchy, into your home, and bring them up to be young adults.

So start tomorrow, elicit the help of the eldest to give a good example, to the others. Give them all a treat out walking, and tire them out. Teach them gradually by your own example, but never, NEVER give up.