Poor relationship between kids. At a loss

[likeamother]

We have a bit of a unique set-up but think this is the best place to post. I would really value some insights and thoughts from those with blended or separated families.

My Dnephew 13 has lived with us for 2 years, since he began secondary. He's had a rough ride, was removed from his mum/my sis aged 2 and lived with my mum who is brilliant but due to age and ill-health was starting to struggle. The move here was planned and we live in the next city to where he was with my mum, he was seeing her lots still before lockdown. He is young for his age and has some unspecific mild learning needs at school, it doesn't come across to friends, my friends etc. but he is a little young for his age and does struggle a little to follow some instructions, though some of this I'm sure is a typical teen thing too.

I'm separating from my husband, I was house hunting before lockdown but things have obviously been delayed. We hadn't told the kids as were waiting to know for sure where we'd be moving to.

I have two DS, just turned 7 and 4. Prior to DN moving here they were all so close and had a fab relationship , especially DN and my older son. It has all gone downhill since he moved here and then worse again since lockdown. There's a 6 year age gap and DN has started hitting the teens so I accept they're in different places and aren't going to be best mates, but the competitiveness (mainly from DN) is getting ridiculous and I fear damaging their relationship further. Just a few examples:

• DS7 sits next to me for a cuddle, DN runs across, 'I want a cuddle! I want a cuddle!' and they literally fight over me like the last bloody doughnut.
• DS got rollerskates for his birthday just recently and was beginning to 'get' them. When we showed DN he said, 'I want rollerskates! I really want them!' (he had them when younger and wasn't bothered about them at all).
• DS showed us all a magic trick he got in a birthday card, DN immediately starts begging to know it, no 'Ooh that's good, well done' etc. Goes on and on until I say (and feel bad about it), 'Can you please just let DS enjoy his trick, like we have done when you've done tricks or similar in the past?'

There are a million other things and I'm at the point where I tense up every time they start playing together or talking because they can't seem to be happy for each other about anything. I hate to say it but it's largely DN causing trouble, e.g. the two younger ones are playing and he comes over and within a couple of minutes one or both of the younger ones are upset because he's changed the game or introduced things they don't want him to, like said 'it's a bomb!' and dropped something on some Star Wars nation they've set up or whatever.

DS7 is no angel and can be a telltale and I often tell him to just leave it, that it's not nice to tell tales, that they need to sort it out themselves etc. But tbh I can see why he feels fed up because if I happen to overhear how DN can talk to him when he doesn't think I can hear it can be spiteful or mocking or overly bossy (I always say something when I do hear it), and DS is now at an age where he wants to be in charge of his own games and they end up in a weird power-play.

DS4 has picked up on the dynamic and I think it's changed his relationship with DN too, because he's naturally closer to DS7 due to the age gap and things in common etc. He sees them arguing and I see him mimic how they speak to each other and it isn't nice.

I've tried to talk to DN when we're doing something just us, e.g. encouraging him to take a bit of a different role, like helping or just joining in as I would when playing with them because, as an adult, I don't feel the need to change the game or have a problem with the younger kids leading it. However, DN I think is caught between two worlds of feeling like he's too grown up to play on one hand, but then wanting to join in and be in charge.

I've assured him he doesn't need to 'compete' with the younger 2, that he gets to do all this other stuff they don't, e.g. stay up later, watch films they don't, have more screen time, do things independently with friends (before lockdown at least), but it doesn't make a difference except for a few hours after maybe.

When I do physically separate with my H I'm worried their relationship will get worse. DN won't spend much time with H (DN is one of the reasons I'm leaving him but that's probably a whole other thread!) so the younger 2 will be spending, say, 35% of time with H, together, and have less time with DN. While this might make things more harmonious in the short-term, I worry they'll be less connected and I just feel so sad for DN as I know he hasn't had it easy and must feel displaced, despite my best efforts, as ultimately I'm not his mum and I know he feels sad about this.

Has anyone got any advice, or things that have worked with step siblings? I know life isn't perfect but I'd love for their relationship to improve in some ways at least, and reduce the tension. I feel really out of my depth now, and just overwhelmed as I'm trying to manage this weird lockdown secret separation which is hard enough. Feel like my head is going to explode!

Oh my word I'm sorry this is so bloody long. Think I've mistaken this thread for a counselling session

Hi op - firstly I'm really sorry you're going through all this - it sounds incredibly tough for everyone.
However, I do think that your issues aren't pertinent to this board & I mean that kindly & by way of advice in that I think you'd get better support elsewhere. Have you tried to get yourself a counsellor/therapist? I feel that your specific issues are very interwoven with your family of origin and as such step advice won't really be relevant.
What strikes me from your post is you & your mum have assumed responsibility of your dn. It appears that your dn has neither mum nor dad around which is one issue. Next issue is that he's no longer living with his gm, the woman he grew up with. The third issue is that he's struggling to find his place in a new family set up. Fourth issue is this new family set up is about to be dismantled & the kids he's struggling to fit in with are now going to have their own struggles what with their parents splitting up & having to adapt to dividing their time between mum & dad.
If dn is a factor in your split then the next issue is that dn may know this as may your kids (maybe not now but even further down the line) - kids pick up on these things, or their df may say something either intentionally or not.
I would really think that you need a very specific form of counselling & support to help you navigate this as so much is on you already & the split will bring many more issues for all concerned.
Mind yourself in all this & I hope you can get some good support.

Thanks for this Magda. Reading your reply and seeing my post objectively I can see how complex and messy this all is and I’m sure I do need some professional input. Do you mean individual counselling, rather than family therapy?
Once I move I will really try to set this up, it’s not really possible at the moment due to tangled complex finances and keeping my outgoings low for mortgage application.

I suppose in the meantime it would be great to get some advice but I take the point there’s probably nobody on mumsnet who has faced this same situation! I don’t know. I just feel a bit lost with it all and the lockdown delay hasn’t helped I’m sure.

I'm not in that situation but it's heartbreaking - he's never known a mother to love him the way you do your children and i expect he's extremely jealous of the relationship your children have with you. I do think you probably need some therapy - family therapy but also DN on his own. He's been through a lot in his short life and maybe he feels like he's an interloper in your family but is trying to figure out where he belongs in your family. Is his place with you secure? Maybe he's afraid he might be moved on again.

Hi likeamother, I have no specific advice for you but I thought this sounds like something the people in the Adoption board might be more help with.
Your DN has in effect had an adoption ( his gm) breakdown and prior to that was removed from his DM.
His next placement was to an already established family where perhaps the father was not that enthusiastic/didn't understand what taking responsibility for another child meant in reality.
It's amazing his issues are as seemingly mild as sibling rivalry to be honest.
Good luck 🍀

Thank you, that’s a good idea about the adoption board. I know there are bigger things at play than sibling rivalry, of course, but it doesn’t change that it’s having a big impact on them day to day and life wouldn’t be improved if I could handle it effectively.

His place with us is completely secure and I tell him I love him every day and try to show him I do continually, but I appreciate it isn’t enough for him and I can’t do the thing that would make the most difference - magically turn his mother into a mum.

Perhaps the bigger stuff is almost too big for me to try to tackle right now so I’m trying to at least do something.

And yes @Sk1nnyB1tch that’s pretty much it with my H I wish we’d separated before he moved here, I did try but was convinced things would work and I really regret it.

I have no advice for you but just wanted to say what I think you’re doing a wonderful thing for your nephew and you sound like a really good person. Good luck

Thanks Spongebob. That’s a kind thing to say when I’m aware of how many things I’ve messed up!

I’ve reported the post to ask it to be moved to the adoption board

I agree with everything @Magda72 said, but also see elements of teen desiring attention and finding the easiest way to obtain attention is to behave badly. Does your DN still have a SW if he does it would be worth talking to them as they maybe able to help with counselling etc.
I think just to add another elements teens have struggled in lockdown their natural habitat of friends is not available to them and they are finding it harder than normal to structure themselves.

I’ve not got any advice for your specific situation but I just wanted to say - in my (limiter) experience, 13-14 is a really hard age too. Dd is now 16 and much better, more grown up, easier to reason with etc. By 13-14 was hard and we’re seeing it again with ds. Add to that the stress of lockdown!

I just want to wish you all the best. What you’re doing for DN is wonderful but not at all easy.

As an adopter who does post on the Adoption board, I would also encourage you to look for support there, as that is probably closest to your family dynamic.

If a child has, from an early age, found that their needs weren't met consistently, it affects the way their brain develops, and they get 'wired' to experience situations as potential threats to their survival. Everything from love, to food, to winning a board game (!) is a fight to make sure they get enough, and however much they have there is always the fear it won't be enough. For years my daughters, when I served up food, would IMMEDIATELY look at each others plate, to make sure that the other didn't have more. They love each other very much, but they were also unable to move on from seeing each other as a threat to their own survival…

Of course, on a practical, day to day basis you need to find a way of managing the situation. For now, given lockdown and your difficult situation, I would keep them apart as much as possible. Yes, it may affect their relationship in the short term, but you're in this for the long term. When you are able to supervise, get them doing a structured activity alongside each other (e.g. baking, they each have their own - equal! - ingredients. Nothing that involves competition). When lock down eases enough, look for some specialist support.

The Boy Who Was Raised As A Dog is a good intro to the way those early experiences shape the brain.

@Allington gives good advice.
As pp said , if SW involved ask for help. If not you can self refer for a Family Support Worker - if that is still their official title - who can signpost to lots of resources and services.
Would DN benefit from an outside, extra-curricular activity that is just for him? Might need to wait until after the move but maybe start investigating potential activities.
You are doing a very special thing for a troubled child.

Hi there, @likeamother - we've moved your thread to the Adoption board, as requested.

Best of luck with it all.

I’m so glad you’ve found your way here - I’m give it some thought but my intial thinking is that your DN may be trying to copy your sons as a way of being accepted. He’s had a lot of moves in his life and even though they’re for the best, and the most recent one was planned it’s likely that he’ll think the issue is him - now matter how often you’ve explained that’s not the case. It’ll be hard for him to make sense of why his mum can’t care for him and now his gran isn’t able to either. He’s going to be massively insecure so anything that looks like it might help him “stay” or be noticed is going to appeal to him, hence copying the things your salon does which bring praise or affections - which drives you crazy and has the opposite affect.

While you know he doesn’t need to compete with your two - at a very basic level he doesn’t, because in his head he got moved because he wasn’t good enough, again you know that but he doesn’t and he’ll be terrified of being moved on again.

In the short term I’d be really showering him with praise, give him his own role in family life (DN always does such a good job of X, I can rely on you for Y) and try to occupy his time 1:1 to give your two time to play be themselves. Adoptive parenting constantly calls for us to go against our instincts - the times we want to pull away is when we need to pull closer, the time we want to exclude is the time we need to include.

I’d point you to reading about therapeutic parenting which is a way of parenting that places relationship at the centre of your parenting which is hard but does make a huge difference.

I meant to say how lucky he is to have you - I can hear how much you have his welfare in mind, good luck with it all - others will be along soon I’m sure, it’s a wise bunch round here.

Thanks you so much for these replies. Have cried reading them and can’t believe how spot on your words are. The competing to survive and the copying younger children for affection and attention make complete sense and have floored me. Am just starting to realise how much I don’t know.

I ended up having to work this aft and have just finished but will be back tomorrow to reread and reply properly. Thank you, thank you 🙏 I really do appreciate it.

likeamother my birth dd was 9 when our adopted son arrived at 3. That was 6 years ago.

DD was later diagnosed as on the autistic spectrum and DS is difficult (very emotional) although neurotipical.

I just wanted to say I am so sorry for your very difficult situation and know how very hard it can be having children fight a lot etc. As mine do all the time.

Please do ask for urgent intervention help. Whatever they can offer, sessions via zoom or whatever to allow DN to talk about his feelings, family therapy of any sort, whatever is on offer.

One thing we do, which sounds small but has helped a lot, (and was suggested by post adoption support) is a family games night.

We have fizzy drinks or sweets or chips and dips and play a game like Uno, or the family Nurturing Game (very expensive but quite good).

shop.familylinks.org.uk/shop/nurturing-game

We do this once a week, twice in lockdown per week and it helps.

One thing that also helps me is to remember that behaviour is language. It shows us how the kids are feeling and thinking.

The image we had in training before adoption is the Fountain.

The jets of water coming off the fountain are the behavior, this is what we see and often what we react to.

But these jets of water are fed the column of water, and this is the feelings. The feelings the child has are what influence the behavior.

And finally, the column of water is fed from the base, the base is the needs. The needs influence the feelings massively and so affect the behaviour.

So it's the needs we need to address firstly, this will influence the feelings and finally the behaviour.

Much easier said than done. But good to remember when your DN is trying to push in on sitting on the couch for comfort or whatever etc it is because he is feeling very vulnerable. Maybe, before a cuddle with one of your sons, make a few minutes for a chat, a hug etc and ask him to do some things that will help (could he please make some tea/help you write a shopping list/help with something in the garden? Loads of praise for him when he helps etc.

BUT remember you are in a terribly difficult situation so just muddling through is OK.

Thank you all again, I can't stop thinking about everything that's been said and, though I'm sad it's taken me this long to get to this point, I at least have more of an idea of what I need to action to properly help him. On Saturday night we kept him up late and had a disco, which he loved and yesterday was just so much better. I think partly because he'd had so much quality time without the other 2 and also because I actually tried to pre-empt what he might need and offered extra of affection and praise. Will really try to keep this in mind this week above school work/work/stress. His feelings are more important than stressing about his maths work! And I'd much rather spend 20 minutes helping him feel loved, wanted and settled than battling over school stuff. I feel like things are in much sharper focus since the weekend and all of your help.

They love each other very much, but they were also unable to move on from seeing each other as a threat to their own survival…
@Allington, so much of what you said struck a chord, thank you so much for these insights. What you said here about your daughters is desperately sad but makes complete sense and I can see so many similarities (we have the same if I'm making a snack, 'are you making one for me as well?' - as if I wouldn't - but I now understand why he reacts this way and didn't before). Do you think the brain can be rewired, with the right support and intervention? When you say for years your daughters viewed things that way, do they not any more?

@Caramac04 He was doing swimming lessons and taekwondo (the latter through school) before lockdown and I think they did help and he particularly enjoyed swimming, which is something he is miles better at that the younger 2 so probably helped most of all now I think about it with more insight! Fingers crossed we'll get back to this kind of stuff soon and I'll encourage solo things he can do that may help give him a boost and feel more confident in himself.

@Jellycatspyjamas I think you're spot on, and he does copy a lot, to the point of making the same stompy exclamations the 4yo does when he's annoyed about something. It is hard because I get frustrated, 'Come on, you're 13!' but I can totally see that he views attention and affection being given this way, and also that he isn't a typical 13yo, in so many ways. Needing to go against instincts is really helpful and v accurate in terms of what I need to do vs. what I often feel like doing, I so regret not being better prepared or informed before he came here, but I'm here now and can at least start on the right path, albeit a little late.

@Italiangreyhound It sounds incredibly tough for you too, and 6 or so years is a long time of dealing with constant fighting, on top of seeking help and a diagnosis for your daughter. Do your children still have therapy now? I will definitely seek professional help, I'm not sure if it will be better done once I move, or maybe better if it's established once that happens. I think the problem is not including my H in it as he's not going to be fully in his life any more, so might be better done after, but I will look into it and give things careful thought.

The game looks really good, I'll get it and think it will help the younger 2 too. The things you mention are all completely achievable and have happened sometimes but not consistently so I'm going to make them a priority. While I knew they benefitted him, e.g. time just us, giving him special responsibilities and praise, it's been easy to let lots of things slide during lockdown and when I'm been stressed out with the separation, without understanding how important they really were.

So it's the needs we need to address firstly, this will influence the feelings and finally the behaviour.

The fountain info was so helpful and makes such sense. I talked to my H about this and, though I know he doesn't have the same commitment, it helped him understand much better the journey behind DN's behaviour. I urged him to tread softly and I think he will. I just need to protect him as much in the short-term and then feel we can start properly once we have our new family set-up.

MNHQ thank you for moving this.

Great to hear you are so open to all of this.

For us things are very up and down. DD is better during lockdown and ds is worse!

Yesterday, the kids and dh went out for a walk and I stayed home then later we had games and sweets. They got on well and it was delightful.

I do hope if your dh continues to see his sons he might be able to continue relationship with dn bit it may not workout. Did you do a tgread on you and dh? I am sorry things are going south. Is it not salvageable?

Also, you said...

"Do you think the brain can be rewired, with the right support and intervention?"

I know that was not to me, but to some degree yes the brain is constantly rewired or you could not learn anything new. But certain pathways are set down in early infancy, which means we have a template we go to when stressed (that's how it was explained to me).

If your nephew had good ( what is called good-enough) consistent parenting when little and was quite well-rounded etc then he may work through these current difficulties well.

Re not being the age they are chronologically....My dd is young for 15. She hates me pointing out ds is 'only 9'.

I now try not to point out their ages so much. I might think it buy I just try and say what I expect from them (not fighting and not arguing etc).

I've stopped expecting dd to be able to put herself in a nine-year-old's shoes because as a person on the spectrum she doesn't seem able to do it.

Re activities...Can you get him into any online Taekwando group. Just for now?

Sorry my answers are so long. So much to say!

Ps you sound fab. Xxxxxx

As Italian says, yes, I do think 'rewiring' is possible, to some extent... my daughters are way less competitive than they were, though of course it helps that DD1 is now an adult and has left home! The more the pressures (other worries, tiredness, illness etc) the more likely the old, unhelpful patterns re-emerge. I can't recommend 'The Boy who was raised as a dog' highly enough - it is very readable as well as explaining the neuro-developmental information.

I think you are right to forget about chronological age, and try to respond to his emotional age - which will vary more for children who have had early trauma. So one moment he may have the emotional regulation of his 'actual' age, and then something triggers his antennae for survival and he will have the ability to respond at the level of a much younger child. Let go of what he 'should' be able to do and cope with, and accept that it is 'can't' comply, not 'won't' comply.

I know that was not to me, but to some degree yes the brain is constantly rewired or you could not learn anything new. But certain pathways are set down in early infancy, which means we have a template we go to when stressed (that's how it was explained to me).

This is a really good explanation - children can change to some degree, our brains are changing all of the time even in to adulthood but there’s a predisposition that draws our children back into the skills they needed to survive. It’s an instinctive thing triggered by all kinds of experiences, for example you know that smell of freshly cut grass - to some people it reminds them of summer, for others it might attach to a specific memory, some others will almost feel to sun on their shoulders and for others it just brings on hay fever. The scent is the same but it’s meaning differs so we each have a different reaction to it. If I love the smell I might not get that for you it triggers itching eyes and sneezing so wonder why you don’t love it like I do.

That’s a very simplistic way of thinking about triggers, a noise, smell, colour, type of weather, car type, good choice, turn of phrase etc etc might have a completely different meaning for your nephew which triggers a fight/flight/freeze response - and before you know it all he’ll has broken lose and you’ve no idea what happened. It happened here yesterday, my DH dropped a plate and both DC were massively triggered - took an hour of tears and sobbing to calm them down.

As you’re around your nephew more you’ll start to recognise triggers - those triggers might always spark a reaction but with time and support he’ll be able to know he’s been triggered and pull himself back from the automatic reaction he has so they become less extreme and shorter in duration. It’s a long term work but very worth it when you see progress.

I feel like I should be paying you all for your massively helpful wisdom, thank you x

He's going to re-start some counselling with the school counsellor who's working remotely. It seemed like the fastest route for him to have an outlet before family therapy and he's open to trying. Last time he hadn't lived here long and I think everything was bottlenecked and quite numb and he didn't really open up to her.

I've just ordered the boy raised as a dog Allington, thank you. I saw it mentioned at the weekend but had forgotten, it looks great.

my DH dropped a plate and both DC were massively triggered - took an hour of tears and sobbing to calm them down.
Jellycatspyjamas thank you for sharing this and explaining triggering so eloquently. I think I have a long way to go in both understanding him and being able to help but I will really try, things already feel different in my approach since this thread and I'm sure it's having a positive impact. It must be a huge help to your DC to have you understand and support them through the effects of feeling triggered.

@Italiangreyhound Please don't apologise, I'm extremely grateful for the time you are giving up. Sorry my responses have gone a bit sloppy. Weekdays are utter chaos here at the moment, as I'm sure they probably are for most of us!

I hadn't even thought of an online class, that's a really good idea and I'll look into it. Unfortunately relationship definitely isn't salvageable, but though I know it will probably upset DN most of all, I honestly believe it is better for him in the longer term for a few reasons. Things have been wrong for a long long time and I truly feel I'll be better equipped to support him on my own. We'll tread as carefully as possible with it - I'm dreading it, of course, but am certain it's for the best.

Yes that makes perfect sense about not pointing out their ages, especially when (for many reasons) they're not 'typical' for their age. I think DN feels exactly the same as your daughter even though he doesn't say it, I can see it in his reaction. We had a small 'incident' yesterday where I think I usually would have pointed out age and I bit my tongue. I still probably didn't deal with it perfectly but tried to explain about actions rather than bringing either of their ages into it.

And though it sounds obvious now, I had been worried before this thread about encouraging too much separate time - that it would make them less connected. But of course they need this - I need separate time too! - and things are easier to manage since accepting this. They are also (generally) getting on better when we then do something together that interests them both, such as an outdoor activity.

Your Sunday and games evening sounds lovely, I hope your week goes as well as it can. You sound versed at accepting the ups and downs and understanding both your son's and daughter's needs, which I really salute. I'm at the bottom of the ladder but at least I know I'm climbing the right one now.
Thank you again xxx

It sounds as if you are doing incredibly well in a very tough situation - lockdown and relationship difficulties would be hard enough on their own!

And I found the key thing is my own attitude- I suppose my beliefs about what my daughters 'should've do and the way I 'should ' parent them. Once I had made that shift the rest will fall into place, there is a lot of trial and error as you work out the triggers and the best way to respond for your specific child.

Hang on in, you are doing great!

Thanks Allington. Yes that is so true about the ‘should’ - I’m guilty of it with all 3 kids and just life in general, less so than I used to be (a marriage ending nips a lot of that in the bud and is v liberating in that sense!).

We’re not like the other families and that’s ok. He’s not like a typical teen, I’m not a typical mum but it is all ok and we need to play the cards we’re dealt. Thank you

I second Allington

"It sounds as if you are doing incredibly well in a very tough situation - lockdown and relationship difficulties would be hard enough on their own!"

We do have up and duwndaus and sometimes my behaviour is the problem!

Lockdown makes things harder.

You may want to keep a journal of the good days and what works well, to help you feel empowered.